Thread: 303 bullets tumbling

I've just bought a Lithgow 303 at a gun show and grabbed a bunch of that Greek 303 bunker ammo to test it out with.
I haven't put a scope on it yet so was trying to sight in the sights and was unable to hit the targets, after putting up a large board behind the targets, I could see they were getting close, but grouping was not tight and they look like they are going sideways.

I'm hoping its just this cheap ammo at fault, but I thought people found this stuff great.

Any ideas? The rifling in the barrel looked ok to me, that's one reason I bought it. The whole gun looks rather mint I thought.

I associate that with boat tail ammunition in a rifle with a worn throat. I have 2 303s that shoot well with flat base bullets (mk7) but mk 7z the boat tailed machine gun ammo and the Hyland commercial go sideways. I've not tried the Greek hpx so don't know the bullet style. Pull one and that may be your answer

Greetings @Old_School,
The Greek ammo can be variable from excellent to won't fire at all so don't give up yet. By look like they are going sideways do you mean a slightly oval hole or a clear hole showing the the sideways imprint of the projectile. Some .303 rifles can have very loose tolerances. You need to try the rifle with decent ammo or get someone to slug the barrel for you. If you know a handloader they may be able to reload some of the Greek cases for you. The 174 grain round nose is probably the best projectile to try as it seems to shoot well in most rifles. Stay away from spitzer boat tails. Some .303 barrels that look good have eroded throats which may not shoot the boat tails well, or at all. If you are using the original sights make sure that you can see the aiming point clearly. A large black square (at least 100 x 100mm) that you can place the foresight just below showing a thin white line is good. You need to be confident that your sights are aligned the same for each shot. This is an art not gained easily for those of us used to scopes or of advancing years. I assume that your Lithgow is a No1 with open sights.
All the best and let us know of any progress. Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

I associate that with boat tail ammunition in a rifle with a worn throat. I have 2 303s that shoot well with flat base bullets (mk7) but mk 7z the boat tailed machine gun ammo and the Hyland commercial go sideways. I've not tried the Greek hpx so don't know the bullet style. Pull one and that may be your answer

Have some pulled Greek projectiles and they are Mk VII.
GPM.

Check your barrel carefully for muzzle damage. Pitting or bore expansion from water or oil in the last 4-5mm can be enough to destabilise bullets. It is also known that a bad flinch with exquisite timing can also flip a bullet.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

I associate that with boat tail ammunition in a rifle with a worn throat. I have 2 303s that shoot well with flat base bullets (mk7) but mk 7z the boat tailed machine gun ammo and the Hyland commercial go sideways. I've not tried the Greek hpx so don't know the bullet style. Pull one and that may be your answer

I have no idea if these greek rounds have boat tail rounds or not, ive read a bit of stuff that they are less accurate that that this is common with boat tail projectiles.

I have a bunch of CAC ammo too, but the guy in the shop told me not to use it unless its an old worn out gun because its corrosive and its ballistics is not the same as modern ammo, so would need to be sighted in for this ammo

Im also reading that some ammo was designed to hit sideways to inflict more injury, but that makes no sense, as that would mean you loose accuracy.

Would not be a bad idea to measure the bullet diameter with calipers and compare to a new one, I see that these rounds have been put through a tumbler to get rid of most of the corrosion, I wonder if that reduces the diameter?

Will need to pull the head off one of these rounds as you say to see the shape of the projectile, but going by the shape of the hole, it suggests its not boat tail.

Now if this is a worn barrel, i believe there is/was a large surplus of new lithgow parts that went on the market. How easy is it to find a good barrel, or should I just look for another gun if this is stuffed?

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @Old_School,
The Greek ammo can be variable from excellent to won't fire at all so don't give up yet. By look like they are going sideways do you mean a slightly oval hole or a clear hole showing the the sideways imprint of the projectile. Some .303 rifles can have very loose tolerances. You need to try the rifle with decent ammo or get someone to slug the barrel for you. If you know a handloader they may be able to reload some of the Greek cases for you. The 174 grain round nose is probably the best projectile to try as it seems to shoot well in most rifles. Stay away from spitzer boat tails. Some .303 barrels that look good have eroded throats which may not shoot the boat tails well, or at all. If you are using the original sights make sure that you can see the aiming point clearly. A large black square (at least 100 x 100mm) that you can place the foresight just below showing a thin white line is good. You need to be confident that your sights are aligned the same for each shot. This is an art not gained easily for those of us used to scopes or of advancing years. I assume that your Lithgow is a No1 with open sights.
All the best and let us know of any progress. Grandpamac.

They are definitely hitting mostly sideways, and i haven't found any that have hit cleanly straight, from what I understand, this means the bullet is not engaging with the rifling?
I always thought that even if it was a worn barrel, that the bullet would simply loose accuracy, rather than tumble.

Im pretty sure its a Lithgow no3(possibly no4) with open sights, need to have a closer look at the stamping, as its not entirely readable.
I guess i should get a gunsmith to check it out for wear.
Ive always been used to using sights more than scopes in the past, because I used to have an air rifle that I put thousands of rounds through that was open sighted.

Another thing ive noticed with this gun is that the trigger has a huge amount of travel before it will fire, I find you just have to pull the trigger quickly, rather than slowly and risk moving the gun when you take the shot.
I put about 20 rounds through yesterday, as you say, its probably not a bad idea to get some hand loads. I intend to reload mine eventually and these greek cases are supposed to be good quality for reloading.
I dont see any that are severely corroded with significant pitting.

Originally Posted by gundoc

Check your barrel carefully for muzzle damage. Pitting or bore expansion from water or oil in the last 4-5mm can be enough to destabilise bullets. It is also known that a bad flinch with exquisite timing can also flip a bullet.

I cant see any corrosion when looking down the muzzle, not even any pitting, Would be good to look at another gun to compare the rifling to mine, especially at the muzzle end.


Anyway, here are the photos of the holes ive got on the board. Doesnt look like its boat tail, going by the shape here.

Lithgow only had tooling for no 3 rifles. Some photos of the markings would sort it quickly
Std process for a quick check if the throat is to drop a bullet in the breech and push it in with a pencil or cleaning rod till it stops. Push a ramrod down the bore till it touches the bullet and mark the rod.
Tap the bullet out, close the bolt on an empty chamber and push the ramrod down till it contacts the bolt face and mark it. Subtract the length of a live round from the second measurement and d the difference is your free bore.
I had a martini Enfield once where the bullet went past the rear sight before it lodged it wasn't especially accurate at all
CAC ammo would be fine to use nowadays people get a little bit obsessed with it being "corrosive" if it was that bad the military wouldn't have used it. A patch soaked in water gets the salt out, dry and oil

Just a thought the rifle doesn't have some splotches of red or white paint, or the letters DP stamped on it does it

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Lithgow only had tooling for no 3 rifles. Some photos of the markings would sort it quickly
Std process for a quick check if the throat is to drop a bullet in the breech and push it in with a pencil or cleaning rod till it stops. Push a ramrod down the bore till it touches the bullet and mark the rod.
Tap the bullet out, close the bolt on an empty chamber and push the ramrod down till it contacts the bolt face and mark it. Subtract the length of a live round from the second measurement and d the difference is your free bore.
I had a martini Enfield once where the bullet went past the rear sight before it lodged it wasn't especially accurate at all
CAC ammo would be fine to use nowadays people get a little bit obsessed with it being "corrosive" if it was that bad the military wouldn't have used it. A patch soaked in water gets the salt out, dry and oil

OK, it will be a MK 3 then.
I will grab a photo of it later today.
I will do as you say and grab a projectile to take the measurements.
Good to know that its not overly corrosive.
I remember a friend telling me that he had to put vinegar down the barrels, then a cup or two of boiling water down the barrel, and then add oil in his gun, but that was a 7.62x39 using old soviet ammo that had corrosive primers.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Just a thought the rifle doesn't have some splotches of red or white paint, or the letters DP stamped on it does it

Not that I can see anywhere, it has BA on the underside of the trigger guard, and also on the back of the receiver neat the safety catch.

Originally Posted by Old_School

OK, it will be a MK 3 then.
I will grab a photo of it later today.
I will do as you say and grab a projectile to take the measurements.
Good to know that its not overly corrosive.
I remember a friend telling me that he had to put vinegar down the barrels, then a cup or two of boiling water down the barrel, and then add oil in his gun, but that was a 7.62x39 using old soviet ammo that had corrosive primers.

Rest assured it is corrosive. The cause of most buggered 303 barrels along with sawing away at the muzzles with dirty pull through cord.

But all you need to do is use boiling water first to neutralise the deposited shite. Nothing more scientific. And while it is hot get the oil into it.
From my 303 fullbore days I used to have an angled funnel that went into the chamber to make it dead easy to pore boiling water thru. I think Parker Hale used to sell them.

And again, from my 303 fullbore days, anytime you looked at a second hand rifle, aside from gazing up the bore, you tried a loaded round into the muzzle. I have seen many 303s where the projectile would go into the bore right up to the tip of the case's neck. No saying yours will be like that but a quick useful check.

Greetings,
That projectile is really sideways. Mk VII projectiles had a reputation for tumbling after impact but were not supposed to tumble through the air. Similar things were said about the early M16 projectiles but once again they were not supposed to tumble through the air. Reports of the latter are where someone has got things confused.
I believe that your rifle is a No1 Mk III. I have a Lithgow No1 Mk III* that was made in 1943. No1 rifles were not marked that way and neither was the No 3 (usually called a Pattern 14). People get the No and Mk numbers jumbled up quite often. Australia only made No 1 rifles and all No 3 rifles were made in the US.
Most military rifles have a two stage trigger with a heavy first stage and an even heavier second firing stage. You do get used to this and it is important not to snatch (or pull quickly) the trigger as this will result in wide shots. You won't notice the latter with the pills going sideways. The Greek pills seem rather hard to me and I wondered if they were under size but measurement showed they were not at least mine were not.
Regard Grandpamac.

Corrosive CAC is certainly corrosive, not to be triffled with. Those salts get into the steel where it inevitably has microscopic heat and pressure fractures and while pouring boiling water and then oiling helps it never gets it all. Over time the steel darkens and erodes faster than otherwise. I have a pristine barrel and I'll never put corrosive ammo through it. I have black barrels with plenty of rifling and still won't put corrosive ammo thru them. Tried it once but gave up when 2 out of 5 failed to fire. Waste of time IYAM. But each to their own.

When I get hold of old CAC ammo these days I pull the bullets and use them after tumbling clean. The cordite goes under the lemon tree and the brass to the recyclers.

My guess is your .311 dia military projectiles are rattling down a much larger dimensioned bore. They can go as big as .318. And no, the military was not that interested in accurate squad fire from the old battle rifle. The best were reserved for marksmen/snipers the worst for squaddies trained to achieve volume of fire. A bullet traveling sideways will still result in a casualty. While the British Army preferred them to tumble on impact they were not however designed to travel sideways.

Recommend as above that you slug the bore. If its shiny and the throat is reasonable it may be a very worthwhile cast bullet rifle. But I guess it depends what you are after as to keeping it.

I have a 303 195 grain gas check bullet mould I haven't had time to try yet
And a .314 sizer to put the gas checks on after powder coating

Brought all this especially for tired 303 bores

I'm finding vintage bores like the PC bullets

Originally Posted by akaroa1

I have a 303 195 grain gas check bullet mould I haven't had time to try yet
And a .314 sizer to put the gas checks on after powder coating

Brought all this especially for tired 303 bores

I'm finding vintage bores like the PC bullets

Are you selling them?