Thread: Acceptable group size at long range ?

Originally Posted by gimp

I'm not...


Now that I'm not on my iphone,

I mean let's see some shoot and hit 10 .25" dots at 100 yards from field positions, breaking position between shots. Simulating trying to get a first round hit on a .25 MOA target in the field. If you think that's too easy then sure, have a go at 500


Groups are almost irrelevant, they mean nothing about your ability to hit a target, which is the goal of shooting things.

Let's see you achieve multiple hits on your orange 1/2" stick on dots with a rifle that groups 3"

The other thing to consider is that many rifles achieve better MOA at longer range once the projectiles settle down..

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

The other thing to consider is that many rifles achieve better MOA at longer range once the projectiles settle down..

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Best explanation I've seen for that phenomenon is parallax error at closer range, or simple psychological effects on the shooter... not being able to see impacts/group at longer range reduces excitement/tension etc

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

Let's see you achieve multiple hits on your orange 1/2" stick on dots with a rifle that groups 3"

That's why I said almost irrelevant


Precision is important to a degree, but worrying about getting tight groups at long range instead of worrying about being able to hit things is getting priorities wrong

I've seen plenty of rifles that must shoot really tight groups struggle a great deal to hit things, including my own (not that my shoots particularly great groups)

If your rifle shoots 1/4 MOA, and If the center of a group is your point of your aim, and if you take the time to find a good suitable rest, then surely missing the target then becomes an elevation or windage fault?

Of course you can't expect to hit 1/4 or even 1/2 MOA under field conditions all the time! that's the reason you put the effort in to get an accurate as possible load in the 1st place..

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

If your rifle shoots 1/4 MOA, and If the center of a group is your point of your aim, and if you take the time to find a good suitable rest, then surely missing the target then becomes an elevation or windage fault?

You are entirely discounting the importance of the fundamentals of shooting.

Do explain?

We are of course assuming that if you have your rifle to a point where it is shooting very tidy groups, that you are of course aware of basic shooting fundamentals...

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

We are of course assuming that if you have your rifle to a point where it is shooting very tidy groups, that you are of course aware of basic shooting fundamentals...

Shooting groups is different to hitting things.

If you don't believe me, take your .25moa rifle and shoot 10 .25moa targets.




If you improve the mechanical accuracy of your rifle from a ".5moa" rifle to a ".25moa" rifle (ignoring the fact that most of your rounds go well inside your theoretical max group size, groups are not all the same size, individual 3-shot groups tell you next to nothing, etc), then you've changed your theoretical maximum displacement from point of aim due to dispersion by a total of about 3.5 centimeters at 1 kilometer, assuming perfect shooting. It's not real world practical to worry about it. Focus on shooting instead.

(Yes try and minimise vertical spread at long range by keeping velocities uniform but that's not what we're talking about here)

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

Of course you can't expect to hit 1/4 or even 1/2 MOA under field conditions all the time!

Now we are getting some where