Acceptable group size at long range ?

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Originally Posted by R93

Question if the clouds are travelling left to right what is the wind doing at ground level?

Eh? Due to a million different factors it can be doing anything at ground level. Simple meteorolgy.

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Dont know but I just farted and know what the wind just behind me is doing...

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Originally Posted by Kiwishooter

No I'm not taking the piss, I thought the question was quite simple and I am trying to learn what the "experts" on here can teach me about reading wind while hunting........while target shooting I have wind indicators to read and give an indication of what the wind is doing between me and my target and what my projectile will do.
While out hunting it's a different story so I was asking questions, by your answer it's obviious you'd rather poke fun and try and ridicule someone instead of contributing a sensible and valid answer...........or does the wind not alter or modify a projectiles path............Kiwi

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Chill out! I thought you were poking fun and I believe I only ridiculed myself. You have posted photo's of groups you have shot at 100 and 200, I am sorry if I assumed you had a clue a what winds would be a concern at those ranges. You need a thicker skin if that offended you. I am also sure no one on this site considers themself an expert.
In a hunting situation I dont care what the wind is doing at 100 yrds or even 200. If it windy enough to effect my pill at those ranges I wont even be hunting.

Just seen Vietnamcam's post, thanks Cam it is what I was trying to say.

I thought the question was a piss take too, if hunting I only look at the clouds to see what the weather is doing, look at grass/trees etc to get an indicator of what the wind is doing lower down. Pretty difficult to get it right for the entire flight path though. Norway showed us a few handy tricks that keep you on minute of shoulder pretty easily

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Leaves us with the options of shit stirrer or bullshitter.

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Guess it's pretty easy to get a whole lot of meaningles dribble, and actually I'm neither......want to come to the range for a shooting match? I'll set the wind flags and loan you an accurate rifle. You might be able to answer the question.

Actually I would have thought that some hunters on here would have an idea of how to read the wind in field conditions, and would be willing to educate.

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Originally Posted by Kiwishooter

Guess it's pretty easy to get a whole lot of meaningles dribble, and actually I'm neither......want to come to the range for a shooting match? I'll set the wind flags and loan you an accurate rifle. You might be able to answer the question.

Actually I would have thought that some hunters on here would have an idea of how to read the wind in field conditions, and would be willing to educate.

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Meaningless dribble? It reflects on the question does it not? It seems to me you know the answer to your own question and just want to impart your wisdom on us. Please do.
We all have something we are good at KS. Your invite to Tussock is just another attempt IMHO to impose your own belief that you are better and know more about the subject. Drilling holes in paper is to me only important to see if my gear is ready for the bush. A 30 knot wind will only push the calibre I use for hunting 1' at 100. Hardly worth a mention.
I would hazzard a guess Tussock would give you a run for your money at boring old BR and I would put money on him out further.

I hope the pine tree came in handy?

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Missus and I burnt 12 cubic meters of firewood last year:D It was cold! (record in drafty old farmhouse was 29 degrees/0 outside:thumbsup:).

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:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Last Thar I shot was 550m away. I was using my 6.5x47Lapua. The wind was in my face (000) and I was shooting directly up a large valley. I could see from the tussock a gully that came into the main valley at 090 was discourging a strong wind 90 degrees (so full effect) accross my projectiles flight path. I could not measure that wind, but by comparing what the tussock next to me was doing relative to my Kestrel to what the tussock at the mouth of the valley was doing, and what I had seen tussock do before, I estimated it to be 3m/sec. Then I shagged around with the range finder a little more and measured the path of my projectile across that gully mouth to be 300m. The wind in my face was 2m/sec but the effective wind was 0, so I dialed wind for 300m @ 3m/sec.

Thar died, I ate him.

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How far from you was the opening to the gully at a 90deg right angle to you ?

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Originally Posted by R93

Tussock would give you a run for your money at boring old BR and I would put money on him out further.

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How much? and is Tussock willing?......200yds sounds good or do you want 300yds or more?....I'll put up $1k, are you willing to match it??

Despite all your posturing above, it was Tussock that did the name calling and since he thinks I'm a bullshitter I invited him to prove it

R93 I take it the 30knot wind moves your bullet 1inch at 100.......not the 1 foot as you put in your post........may I ask what caliber, projectile and velocity?

Chill out, back up, drop the egos. You're just misunderstanding each other.

COMMUNICATION, PEOPLE

I'm not a LR shooter but I reckon if it's windy get closer.... it affects the the bullet and can help in sneaking in closer :)

I'm an internet expert. I can tell you all about the internet. You see, it's this thing for looking at pornography and arguing with people about retarded shit

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Originally Posted by gimp

I'm an internet expert. I can tell you all about the internet. You see, it's this thing for looking at pornography and arguing with people about retarded shit

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Que, Quagmire. Giggidy!

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Originally Posted by R93

A 30 knot wind will only push the calibre I use for hunting 1' at 100. Hardly worth a mention..

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R93 I would really love to know what cartrdge you use that only has 1inch of wind drift at 100 yards in a 30 knot wind.

As best as I can tell the 7mmWSM shooting a Hornady 162gr Amax with a bc of 0.625 would have to achieve 4000fps and it would still have a wind drift of 1.1" at 100yds in a 30 knot wind. At 1000yds this load would only have about 138" of wind drift which is approx 70" better than the same bullet at 2950fps. That is a real advantage.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Expert aye?

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I got told once that an expert was "a drip under pressure" :yaeh am not durnk:

Tussock I have no idea what m/sec is so looked it up and found out that 3 m/sec = 6.7mph

I also found this
Beaufort Wind Scale Windspeed
in MPH Description - Visible Condition

0 Calm smoke rises vertically
1 - 4 Light air direction of wind shown by smoke but not by wind vanes
4 - 7 Light breeze wind felt on face; leaves rustle; ordinary wind vane moved by wind
8 - 12 Gentle breeze leaves and small twigs in constant motion; wind extends light flag
13 - 18 Moderate breeze raises dust and loose paper; small branches are moved
19 - 24 Fresh breeze small trees in leaf begin to sway; crested wavelets form on inland water
25 - 31 Strong breeze large branches in motion; telephone wires whistle; umbrellas used with difficulty
32 - 38 Moderate gale whole trees in motion; inconvenience in walking against wind
39 - 46 Fresh gale breaks twigs off trees; generally impedes progress
47 - 54 Strong gale slight structural damage occurs; chimney pots and slates removed
55 - 63 Whole gale trees uprooted; considerable structural damage occurs
64 - 72 Storm very rarely experienced; accompanied by widespread damage
73+ Hurricane devastation occurs

At last, something useful in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Kiwishooter

R93 I would really love to know what cartrdge you use that only has 1inch of wind drift at 100 yards in a 30 knot wind.

As best as I can tell the 7mmWSM shooting a Hornady 162gr Amax with a bc of 0.625 would have to achieve 4000fps and it would still have a wind drift of 1.1" at 100yds in a 30 knot wind. At 1000yds this load would only have about 138" of wind drift which is approx 70" better than the same bullet at 2950fps. That is a real advantage.

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My 338 drifts less than an inch in a 30 knot sidewind @ 100 yards. 300gr (.450 g7 BC) @ 3,275 fps.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by The Claw

My 338 drifts less than an inch in a 30 knot sidewind @ 100 yards. 300gr (.450 g7 BC) @ 3,275 fps.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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That's pretty impresive so is that the 338 Lapua Magnum or some other 338? Also which projectile are you using?

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Originally Posted by Kiwishooter

That's pretty impresive so is that the 338 Lapua Magnum or some other 338? Also which projectile are you using?

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Berger Gen 2 Hybrid, using custom BC as the .420 BC means it will shoot high. Chey Tac case (Greg Duley's 338 Lunatic)

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Originally Posted by The Claw

Berger Gen 2 Hybrid, using custom BC as the .420 BC means it will shoot high. Chey Tac case (Greg Duley's 338 Lunatic)

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So do you use it for hunting and what weight is the rifle??

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Originally Posted by R93

Que, Quagmire. Giggidy!

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I was starting to think I was the only one who watched/loved Family Guy. Farkin funny when they told Quagmire that you could look at porn on the internet.......classic.

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Originally Posted by R93

I was starting to think I was the only one who watched/loved Family Guy. Farkin funny when the told Quagmire that you could look at porn on the internet.......classic.

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Arguably the best cartoon adult comedy on tv. Nothing is sacred.:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Arguably the best cartoon adult comedy on tv. Nothing is sacred.:thumbsup:

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Not bad for a yank comedy alright. I hear Peter's fights with the chicken are coming to an end??????

Not the chicken fights! Someone told me they do them because it's cheaper haha


Dad, what's the blow-hole for?
I'll tell you what it's not for, son. And when I do, you'll understand why I can never go back to Sea World.

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Originally Posted by Tahr-Bound

Not the chicken fights! Someone told me they do them because it's cheaper haha


Dad, what's the blow-hole for?
I'll tell you what it's not for, son. And when I do, you'll understand why I can never go back to Sea World.

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Classic Peter!!

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Just wondering where I should be heading with group sizes.

Is it feasible to be trying/striving the shoot 0.25 or what ever, moa groups or is anything under 1moa acceptable ?

Is 0.25 or what ever, moa unrealistic/impossible.

If it isn't that possible whats the point trying to achieve it unless you like pulling all your hair out, for me that wouldn't take long ;)

Just trying to get an idea what other shooters think....

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What size target do you want to hit at what range, i would want sub moa, as 1 moa @ 100 yards = about an inch and then two inches at 200 yards and so forth

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Originally Posted by mucko

What size target do you want to hit at what range, i would want sub moa, as 1 moa @ 100 yards = about an inch and then two inches at 200 yards and so forth

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I have come to the conclusion that obviously less is more but around an average of .5-.6 moa at range is where you need to be & is working fine for me so far.

I would like better but field conditions really don't allow that most of the time beyond 5-600 yards......

Having enough "horsepower" when shots end up being slightly less than ideal is helpful.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

So Greg, your averaging .5-.6MOA to range in field conditions with those big guns?

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Have been quite easily at 500 & 625 yards have had 3 shots down to .23 but usually .34 & up to .85 in the wind......usually not to far from intended poi.

Had 2 misses at 950 out of 5 shots in changable conditions & a very crappy position 34 degress up, the other day, both misses were first shots, I'm slowly getting better ;)

Need to get the dies sorted better for the 375 & then I will get that humming again.....mmmmmm big high bc bullets...mmmmmm

You should be good to win the gunslinger comp next time its on with stats like that Greg !!! I shot a measly 860 yards the other day and missed every single shot -I dont know what the group size was as I couldnt see it throught the glare of the sun lol

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Originally Posted by el borracho

You should be good to win the gunslinger comp next time its on with stats like that Greg !!! I shot a measly 860 yards the other day and missed every single shot -I dont know what the group size was as I couldnt see it throught the glare of the sun lol

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Nope not going :-)

That can happen very easily at any range :pissed off:

I saw a pic of a 3 shot group the other day approx .27 moa well past 1400 :cool:

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

I saw a pic of a 3 shot group the other day approx .27 moa well past 1400 :cool:

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Cool, how close was the first one to the centre of the target?

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Originally Posted by gimp

Cool, how close was the first one to the centre of the target?

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:D ...why do I feel like we've just gone full-circle? :thumbsup:

Ps. Debate about group size vs. first-round hits aside (I found it quite interesting, and can see the merits of both):

-why are we talking about 3-shot groups rather than 5? If we're going to do groups, we might as well do them properly?? (or have I missed something here?).

Because I thought, we are talking about LR hunting rifles. Where is it gospel that 5 rounds is the correct number to consitute a group? Initially a 5-10 rnd group has its merits, no doubt. If you have established your rifle is accurate and your rounds fall on your POA then 3 rounds, which consitute a group by the way, are suffice for practical hunting needs.
To fire 5 rounds every time you check your rifle after that is a waste of good ammo as far as I am concerned.
Cold bore hits on POA is where its at, whatever the range for most peoples purposes.
Paper tamperers, firing 5, 10 or 20 round serials can wank all they like over what suits them.
A more realistic test IMO, of a shooter and his gear, is a group fired at the same POA over several days no matter what the conditions. Just settling in behind the rifle will play havoc on some.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Cool, how close was the first one to the centre of the target?

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The pic I saw had 1 hole 1" below centre, one directly below it slightly right & one below that to the left wrecking the group :)

I have no idea the order they were shot or whether the shown target was the one aimed at.

It matters not, a group that size in that position is a great accomplishment at any range let alone at 1600 metres :D

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Originally Posted by R93

Because I thought, we are talking about LR hunting rifles. Where is it gospel that 5 rounds is the correct number to consitute a group? Initially a 5-10 rnd group has its merits, no doubt. If you have established your rifle is accurate and your rounds fall on your POA then 3 rounds, which consitute a group by the way, are suffice for practical hunting needs.
To fire 5 rounds every time you check your rifle after that is a waste of good ammo as far as I am concerned.
Cold bore hits on POA is where its at, whatever the range for most peoples purposes.
Paper tamperers, firing 5, 10 or 20 round serials can wank all they like over what suits them.
A more realistic test IMO, of a shooter and his gear, is a group fired at the same POA over several days no matter what the conditions. Just settling in behind the rifle will play havoc on some.

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Ah good, thanks- that's just the kind of information I was looking for when I said "(or have I missed something here?)". -What you've said makes good sense in the context of "every time you check your rifle" as you say.

-However, if I was shooting groups for load development, or varifying ballistics at longer range I think I'd still use 5 shots, just for the greater relevance of a larger sample size. (Sorry, that sounded really wanky- I meant: just because 5 shots gives a better example of patterns/trends/consistency). Each to their own on that one though I'm sure.