Thread: Another practical shooting test for Hunters

see it here

https://www.rokslide.com/forums/thre...-posts.165291/

Cheers

Great test. The guy who wrote is deserves a prize.


I share his views. I'll try his test - just for the heck of it and to see if I can.

Greetings All,
Last November I went to the NZDA Regional position shoot at Tokoroa. I went as a spectator as the body was not up to participating (still isn't). One of the shooters was one of our top NZDA shots. Her standing target had 9 of 10 shots in about 30 mm at 100 metres. The 10th shot was a little low and right enlarging the group to about 60 mm, a little over 2 moa. The rifle was a 6 mm BR or similar. Excellent shooting. How did she get that good? Practice and lots of it.
By comparison few shooters on our local range shoot anything other than prone with a bipod. Only two of us practice kneeling, sitting and standing. Food for thought.
Regards Grandpamac.

Im going to be contentious on this post because I understand the subject matter well.

He makes some fair points. But inventing matches/shooting tests is not hard. Not saying its not worth doing, but its nothing to rave about.

Also his statement 'Anything other than round count with structured practice that leads to on demand performance under hunting conditions is mental and ballistic masturbation' is disingenous, I guess he is not familiar with established practices of dry training and mental rehearsals.

I'd like to see a demonstration of sitting/kneeling with a backpack for support. Interesting.

I agree with the general assertion that a lot of shooters are more gear orientated than practice orientated, and do not fire enough rounds on the range before hunting.

Sure its just another "golf course", a bit like the one Ulimtsu posted up, but the mindset and time element of this one differentiates it from many range drills. If a shooter treats it as a "point scoring, chest beating" thing then they are widely missing the mark (pun intended). the only person you should be competing against in a drill like this is yourself. Use what you take hunting - if you start analyzing it to see what the rules are or what equipment is allowed you're back to the "kidding yourself" mindset.

Originally Posted by -BW-

I'd like to see a demonstration of sitting/kneeling with a backpack for support. Interesting.

@BW, do a google search for images when guys use the "game changer" bag.



You can do the same with a daypack.

The idea is to fill any voids between your body and arms to have better support.

If you can get bone on bone support, for me that is the first choice. If the position does not allow for that, look at ways to support your elbow rather than having it float in space.

Hope that makes sense.

Originally Posted by ebf

@BW, do a google search for images when guys use the "game changer" bag.

Attachment 136603

You can do the same with a daypack.

The idea is to fill any voids between your body and arms to have better support.

If you can get bone on bone support, for me that is the first choice. If the position does not allow for that, look at ways to support your elbow rather than having it float in space.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes, that is interesting. I've yet to see anyone try this with a day bag, and I doubt these little bag things in the picture would ever see use outside of very niche competitive shooting groups.
It appears at first glance to be unfeasible to balance a day bag on top of your thigh to support your elbow while kneeling or sitting, and somewhat difficult to hold a day back between your supporting arm and chest while standing. Perhaps if your day bag was uncharacteristically light and was fitted with appropriately design straps to secure it to your body in those positions, it has the potential to work, but under most circumstances, I don't see the advantage in training for such an unlikely eventually, much less having shooters try and compare their ability to do so. Personally I wouldn't rate using a bag to support my limbs as any improvement, as there is already sufficient limb on limb support for in my sitting and kneeling positions. I would certainly use aids to support the rifle of course, if available.
@ebf, I teach shooters to avoid knees on elbows in the kneeling or sitting position as it poses inferior stability (due to the obviously small contact areas and inherent wobble) compared to placing the muscle behind the elbow joint on the knee, or the elbow on the thigh behind the knee, or better yet aim to achieve 'muscle on muscle' contact. Unless the shooter is too old and/or inflexible (not meant to cause offence).

But that's just my subjective opinion, and what I teach based on my experience. At the end of the day, if different techniques work for you and get rounds where you want them, I certainly don't discourage it.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Sure its just another "golf course", a bit like the one Ulimtsu posted up, but the mindset and time element of this one differentiates it from many range drills. If a shooter treats it as a "point scoring, chest beating" thing then they are widely missing the mark (pun intended). the only person you should be competing against in a drill like this is yourself. Use what you take hunting - if you start analyzing it to see what the rules are or what equipment is allowed you're back to the "kidding yourself" mindset.

Not sure if you're responding to me Tentman, but I shall comment. The mindset of a training test is to evaluate the shooter, exposing areas which require further training. There is nothing different or new here than many other drills and tests. the inclusion of a time element is not new or different, and reasonably generous. This test purports to include field conditions such as carriage of equipment but excludes other conditions such as fatigue and elevated heart rate, so it is very basic in that regard. Nothing wrong with basic, but nothing new, nothing better, and as I said earlier, nothing to rave about. As I mentioned in the previous post, it is worth mentioning again what the OP stated in regard to 'mental and ballistic masturbation'. If you poo-poo the idea that learning cannot be achieved without firing rounds then you have just imposed a limitation on yourself.

You are correct in saying if a shooter treats it has a scoring comparison with other firers and as an opportunity for 'chest-beating' then they are missing the point... but any competition shooter will tell you that regardless of other firers, a shooter is always seeking to evaluate and correct errors, improve their ability and reach new personal bests, no matter if that is during a training test or on competition day. So any shooter who regards range time as a 'chest-beating' opportunity and not the space to improve, then they will reach the limit of their ability very quickly. I am not one of those people, in case you thought so.

Analysis is key to improvement, that also goes for the discussion of marksmanship related material such as this.

Not sure what you mean by 'kidding yourself' mindset..?

Originally Posted by -BW-

Yes, that is interesting. I've yet to see anyone try this with a day bag, and I doubt these little bag things in the picture would ever see use outside of very niche competitive shooting groups.
It appears at first glance to be unfeasible to balance a day bag on top of your thigh to support your elbow while kneeling or sitting, and somewhat difficult to hold a day back between your supporting arm and chest while standing. Perhaps if your day bag was uncharacteristically light and was fitted with appropriately design straps to secure it to your body in those positions, it has the potential to work, but under most circumstances, I don't see the advantage in training for such an unlikely eventually, much less having shooters try and compare their ability to do so. Personally I wouldn't rate using a bag to support my limbs as any improvement, as there is already sufficient limb on limb support for in my sitting and kneeling positions. I would certainly use aids to support the rifle of course, if available.
@ebf, I teach shooters to avoid knees on elbows in the kneeling or sitting position as it poses inferior stability (due to the obviously small contact areas and inherent wobble) compared to placing the muscle behind the elbow joint on the knee, or the elbow on the thigh behind the knee, or better yet aim to achieve 'muscle on muscle' contact. Unless the shooter is too old and/or inflexible (not meant to cause offence).

But that's just my subjective opinion, and what I teach based on my experience. At the end of the day, if different techniques work for you and get rounds where you want them, I certainly don't discourage it.

You asked for an example. I gave you one It is something we use in competition, both PRS style as well as hunting comps... Come to a GPRE event and you will see it used very frequently when shooting from compromised positions. Using items (whether that is a specific competition bag, a daypack, or a folded jacket) to fill "holes" in a shooting position is a lot more common than you seem to think. The day pack does not require any specialized straps to be used in this way.

What style of shooting to you teach BTW ?

Originally Posted by ebf

You asked for an example. I gave you one It is something we use in competition, both PRS style as well as hunting comps... Come to a GPRE event and you will see it used very frequently when shooting from compromised positions. Using items (whether that is a specific competition bag, a daypack, or a folded jacket) to fill "holes" in a shooting position is a lot more common than you seem to think. The day pack does not require any specialized straps to be used in this way.

What style of shooting to you teach BTW ?

That you did! touché. I would love to take part in a few more competitions, however there doesn’t seem to be much on offer in the manawatu/rangitikei/Horowhenua area, or if there is, I’m just not in the loop and I can’t find it! Also, my finances don’t support as much shooting as I’d like to do, in terms of buying new guns appropriate to the type of comp.
I do service rifle mostly, and dabble in a bit of pistol. My teaching is within the military arena, and involvement in military shooting competitions, where positional shooting is cornerstone.
If anyone knows of places to practice and compete in my area I’m all ears.

Must be just me but if you haven't used or can't see the use for a daypack for shooting on the hill in any position (other than maybe standing) maybe you need to get out a bit . . . .

Originally Posted by Tentman

Must be just me but if you haven't used or can't see the use for a daypack for shooting on the hill in any position (other than maybe standing) maybe you need to get out a bit . . . .

No I think you missed my point and crafting a strawman response. I certainly didn’t imply there is no use for A daypack as an aid to shooting, it is obviously a go-to aid while prone in lieu of a bipod. What I DID say, was using a pack as an aid to kneeling or sitting is an unconventional and unusual inclusion into the range shooting test proposed by the OP to demonstrate his point about being proficient at positional shooting while hunting, and that I don’t do such a thing myself, and the reasons why I questioned why it would be included it in a generic test for shooters to work to.
No need for the ‘you need to get out more’ rhetoric.

Not much that I am aware of in your area, other than Cheltenham - but that is mostly static prone shooting.

Active service rifle group in Wellington (Upper Hutt), and several field/hunting/prs type shoots in Taranaki.

If you are on Facebook look at Taranaki Long Range Shooters page, as well as Gillice Practical Rifle Events

Service Rifle is I think the best all-round measure of basic shooting skills. I know my general shooting skills increased markedly when I changed from F-class to Service Rifle. Having said that, the positions are well defined and the time limits generally on the slower side.

If you want to push yourself, try one of the field/hunter type comps. Much higher time pressure, and often severely compromised shooting positions, so you need to use a bit more noggin-power to figure out a plan.

Originally Posted by ebf

Not much that I am aware of in your area, other than Cheltenham - but that is mostly static prone shooting.

Active service rifle group in Wellington (Upper Hutt), and several field/hunting/prs type shoots in Taranaki.

If you are on Facebook look at Taranaki Long Range Shooters page, as well as Gillice Practical Rifle Events

Service Rifle is I think the best all-round measure of basic shooting skills. I know my general shooting skills increased markedly when I changed from F-class to Service Rifle. Having said that, the positions are well defined and the time limits generally on the slower side.

If you want to push yourself, try one of the field/hunter type comps. Much higher time pressure, and often severely compromised shooting positions, so you need to use a bit more noggin-power to figure out a plan.

You're right, civilian service rifle matches tend toward generous time limits and lack of rapid movement, but they will never change I think, not enough new/younger shooters joining to initiate any progress toward similarity with military rifle matches.

I went to Cheltenham once for a look but didn't think f-class/nra style was for me, although they have occasional practice days and electronic targetry to use, I don't think they allow changing target type for practice. I might give it a go as its the only range with 300m or more around here.

I quit fb some time ago, the downside is that there are many shooting groups on there and I miss out on a bit of news. While I was working in chch I attended a couple of shoots with the canterbury long range group which was enjoyable, and I intended to get to taranaki once I had a suitable long range rifle, but my 7mm project is still sitting in the safe unfinished.

Just farm access would be great, somewhere to put targets out to 300 and get some practice in, otherwise its book a range and drive to waiouru.

Where are these Gillice events?

Originally Posted by -BW-

You're right, civilian service rifle matches tend toward generous time limits and lack of rapid movement, but they will never change I think, not enough new/younger shooters joining to initiate any progress toward similarity with military rifle matches.

haha, you really need to get out more ! there have been massive changes to "civilian" service rifle matches over the last 12 months. We shot against (and beat) the military teams until a about year ago when Cindy took our AR15s...

Competing at Waiouru was always fun, and a great source of brass if you picked up after the Army or Air Force teams

Originally Posted by -BW-

Where are these Gillice events?

all over the north island : Tarata and Ahititi outside New Plymouth, venue just south of Waiouru, Tokoroa shooting complex.