see it here
https://www.rokslide.com/forums/thre...-posts.165291/
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see it here
https://www.rokslide.com/forums/thre...-posts.165291/
Cheers
Great test. The guy who wrote is deserves a prize.
I share his views. I'll try his test - just for the heck of it and to see if I can.
Greetings All,
Last November I went to the NZDA Regional position shoot at Tokoroa. I went as a spectator as the body was not up to participating (still isn't). One of the shooters was one of our top NZDA shots. Her standing target had 9 of 10 shots in about 30 mm at 100 metres. The 10th shot was a little low and right enlarging the group to about 60 mm, a little over 2 moa. The rifle was a 6 mm BR or similar. Excellent shooting. How did she get that good? Practice and lots of it.
By comparison few shooters on our local range shoot anything other than prone with a bipod. Only two of us practice kneeling, sitting and standing. Food for thought.
Regards Grandpamac.
Im going to be contentious on this post because I understand the subject matter well.
He makes some fair points. But inventing matches/shooting tests is not hard. Not saying its not worth doing, but its nothing to rave about.
Also his statement 'Anything other than round count with structured practice that leads to on demand performance under hunting conditions is mental and ballistic masturbation' is disingenous, I guess he is not familiar with established practices of dry training and mental rehearsals.
I'd like to see a demonstration of sitting/kneeling with a backpack for support. Interesting.
I agree with the general assertion that a lot of shooters are more gear orientated than practice orientated, and do not fire enough rounds on the range before hunting.
Sure its just another "golf course", a bit like the one Ulimtsu posted up, but the mindset and time element of this one differentiates it from many range drills. If a shooter treats it as a "point scoring, chest beating" thing then they are widely missing the mark (pun intended). the only person you should be competing against in a drill like this is yourself. Use what you take hunting - if you start analyzing it to see what the rules are or what equipment is allowed you're back to the "kidding yourself" mindset.
@BW, do a google search for images when guys use the "game changer" bag.Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
Attachment 136603
You can do the same with a daypack.
The idea is to fill any voids between your body and arms to have better support.
If you can get bone on bone support, for me that is the first choice. If the position does not allow for that, look at ways to support your elbow rather than having it float in space.
Hope that makes sense.
Yes, that is interesting. I've yet to see anyone try this with a day bag, and I doubt these little bag things in the picture would ever see use outside of very niche competitive shooting groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
It appears at first glance to be unfeasible to balance a day bag on top of your thigh to support your elbow while kneeling or sitting, and somewhat difficult to hold a day back between your supporting arm and chest while standing. Perhaps if your day bag was uncharacteristically light and was fitted with appropriately design straps to secure it to your body in those positions, it has the potential to work, but under most circumstances, I don't see the advantage in training for such an unlikely eventually, much less having shooters try and compare their ability to do so. Personally I wouldn't rate using a bag to support my limbs as any improvement, as there is already sufficient limb on limb support for in my sitting and kneeling positions. I would certainly use aids to support the rifle of course, if available.
@ebf, I teach shooters to avoid knees on elbows in the kneeling or sitting position as it poses inferior stability (due to the obviously small contact areas and inherent wobble) compared to placing the muscle behind the elbow joint on the knee, or the elbow on the thigh behind the knee, or better yet aim to achieve 'muscle on muscle' contact. Unless the shooter is too old and/or inflexible (not meant to cause offence).
But that's just my subjective opinion, and what I teach based on my experience. At the end of the day, if different techniques work for you and get rounds where you want them, I certainly don't discourage it.
Not sure if you're responding to me Tentman, but I shall comment. The mindset of a training test is to evaluate the shooter, exposing areas which require further training. There is nothing different or new here than many other drills and tests. the inclusion of a time element is not new or different, and reasonably generous. This test purports to include field conditions such as carriage of equipment but excludes other conditions such as fatigue and elevated heart rate, so it is very basic in that regard. Nothing wrong with basic, but nothing new, nothing better, and as I said earlier, nothing to rave about. As I mentioned in the previous post, it is worth mentioning again what the OP stated in regard to 'mental and ballistic masturbation'. If you poo-poo the idea that learning cannot be achieved without firing rounds then you have just imposed a limitation on yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentman
You are correct in saying if a shooter treats it has a scoring comparison with other firers and as an opportunity for 'chest-beating' then they are missing the point... but any competition shooter will tell you that regardless of other firers, a shooter is always seeking to evaluate and correct errors, improve their ability and reach new personal bests, no matter if that is during a training test or on competition day. So any shooter who regards range time as a 'chest-beating' opportunity and not the space to improve, then they will reach the limit of their ability very quickly. I am not one of those people, in case you thought so.
Analysis is key to improvement, that also goes for the discussion of marksmanship related material such as this.
Not sure what you mean by 'kidding yourself' mindset..?
You asked for an example. I gave you one :D It is something we use in competition, both PRS style as well as hunting comps... Come to a GPRE event and you will see it used very frequently when shooting from compromised positions. Using items (whether that is a specific competition bag, a daypack, or a folded jacket) to fill "holes" in a shooting position is a lot more common than you seem to think. The day pack does not require any specialized straps to be used in this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
What style of shooting to you teach BTW ?
That you did! touché. I would love to take part in a few more competitions, however there doesn’t seem to be much on offer in the manawatu/rangitikei/Horowhenua area, or if there is, I’m just not in the loop and I can’t find it! Also, my finances don’t support as much shooting as I’d like to do, in terms of buying new guns appropriate to the type of comp.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
I do service rifle mostly, and dabble in a bit of pistol. My teaching is within the military arena, and involvement in military shooting competitions, where positional shooting is cornerstone.
If anyone knows of places to practice and compete in my area I’m all ears.
Must be just me but if you haven't used or can't see the use for a daypack for shooting on the hill in any position (other than maybe standing) maybe you need to get out a bit . . . .
No I think you missed my point and crafting a strawman response. I certainly didn’t imply there is no use for A daypack as an aid to shooting, it is obviously a go-to aid while prone in lieu of a bipod. What I DID say, was using a pack as an aid to kneeling or sitting is an unconventional and unusual inclusion into the range shooting test proposed by the OP to demonstrate his point about being proficient at positional shooting while hunting, and that I don’t do such a thing myself, and the reasons why I questioned why it would be included it in a generic test for shooters to work to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentman
No need for the ‘you need to get out more’ rhetoric.
Not much that I am aware of in your area, other than Cheltenham - but that is mostly static prone shooting.
Active service rifle group in Wellington (Upper Hutt), and several field/hunting/prs type shoots in Taranaki.
If you are on Facebook look at Taranaki Long Range Shooters page, as well as Gillice Practical Rifle Events
Service Rifle is I think the best all-round measure of basic shooting skills. I know my general shooting skills increased markedly when I changed from F-class to Service Rifle. Having said that, the positions are well defined and the time limits generally on the slower side.
If you want to push yourself, try one of the field/hunter type comps. Much higher time pressure, and often severely compromised shooting positions, so you need to use a bit more noggin-power to figure out a plan.
You're right, civilian service rifle matches tend toward generous time limits and lack of rapid movement, but they will never change I think, not enough new/younger shooters joining to initiate any progress toward similarity with military rifle matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
I went to Cheltenham once for a look but didn't think f-class/nra style was for me, although they have occasional practice days and electronic targetry to use, I don't think they allow changing target type for practice. I might give it a go as its the only range with 300m or more around here.
I quit fb some time ago, the downside is that there are many shooting groups on there and I miss out on a bit of news. While I was working in chch I attended a couple of shoots with the canterbury long range group which was enjoyable, and I intended to get to taranaki once I had a suitable long range rifle, but my 7mm project is still sitting in the safe unfinished.
Just farm access would be great, somewhere to put targets out to 300 and get some practice in, otherwise its book a range and drive to waiouru.
Where are these Gillice events?
haha, you really need to get out more ! there have been massive changes to "civilian" service rifle matches over the last 12 months. We shot against (and beat) the military teams until a about year ago when Cindy took our AR15s...Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
Competing at Waiouru was always fun, and a great source of brass if you picked up after the Army or Air Force teams :P
all over the north island : Tarata and Ahititi outside New Plymouth, venue just south of Waiouru, Tokoroa shooting complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
Haha is right @ebf - I have an idea why you might have won . . . .
Ah I see we must have met before. I was part of that 4 man team, and we only lost by the narrowest of margins, I have the scores around somewhere.. from memory we placed 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th, and you guys placed 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th, Jason winning? It was close! I was 6th I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
I have been to the nationals for the last 3 years in a row, and the matches haven’t changed that I can see, and still key differences from the army matches. So maybe they changed back before that?
So Tentman, whats your take on those results? Were you there competing?
I shoot sitting with elbows on knees often...sitting in tussocks shooting across a gulley it is simply the fastest and most stable way to do it..sitting gets me above the vegetation,keeps the wobbly factor down ...shooting wallabies on the run is very challenging at best of times...by dropping down to sit it ups odds in my favour....using my frame pack infront of me to help support works better still If have time to get set up.
Nope - never been into service style shooting, pulling the lanyard on an M101a1 firing anti -tank was the pinnacle of my (short) military career. But I have won my share of matches in 3 position shooting with hunting rifles including Lee Enfields.
Now - back to the original proposition, how about suggesting how we might build a "better mousetrap", bearing in mind the original thrust was intended as a self test for hunters.
interesting image, how well would they get on carrying a bag around hunting vs just using their rifle sling? more importantly can these folk using these bags even use a sling?
My favourite too, prone is seldom practical in Tahr country, its either too steep, or too much vegetation or other stuff to get above. I do use my daypack occasionally as a front rest (I find bipods too much of a hindrance getting round the place to make them worth carrying). The biggest learning for me in the original Rokslide tread was the use of the daypack as a gap filler between your legs and chest when sitting. I went straight out and tried it (my daypack is always "ready to go") and my Twin-needle mollyme is just the right size, I'd hope to improve my sitting groups by a significant percentage (maybe 50%) when I can apply this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Must’ve been quite cool, I’ve always like firing rockets but never one of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentman
As far as the test outlined in the original OP, my only point of contention was firing position 3; the pack supported kneeling. Omit that, and stick to prone, unsupported kneeling or sitting, and standing, and the three basic firing positions are covered, which is key.
(Also the point regarding not firing rounds, as shooters should’ve encouraged to do dry training, but that can’t be tested so easily)
The OPs concept of aiming for shots to fall within a specific grouping capacity is good, but by which standard do you measure? Is there a common data set that suggests what above average hunting shooters can achieve? Probably not, so it is going to be somewhat arbitrary, the suggested group size in the original OP is probably pretty close, but it’s a bit subjective until you gather some results.
As far as timings go, the original structure is good, starting with untimed shots, then introducing progressively shorter time limitations. But again, by which standards do you measure, and ask shooters to benchmark themselves against? I would lean towards being less less generous, based on the idea that you test for worst case scenario where game in the bush may not stand still for long, but that is subjective still.
As I said earlier, I wouldn’t discourage anyone from doing, but perhaps tailor it to suit individuals, ie, if you have access to longer ranges, then incorporate that into your testing. Although that is counter to the concept of a sort of universal test for hunters.
I will doing some grouping capacity data collection once the range re opens, as I’m interested to compare.
I reckon this would be an awesome challenge. Even just the rifle event.
2020 SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE - COMPETITION DYNAMICS
I meant the introduction of "modern service" class. The belt was on offer for that class this year - before COVID put a stop to all fun... It has created an avenue for a lot more people to get involved in the same style of shooting, but without very specific firearm requirements. Anyone with a 223 hunting type rifle and 3-9 scope can now compete. It would be great to see some of the army teams join in (don't see the civy teams getting access to LMT MARS etc any-day soon), who knows, maybe one day we will be let back onto Waiouru ?Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
A couple of the mil guys still shooting in "classic class" with their own Enfield, P14s etc.
Ah yep, the rifle class change. I entered ‘modern service’ this year, hopefully it goes ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
The changes have definitely put an end to Army teams entering in any official capacity, but a few like myself may enter as civilians, as I did last year, if we have enough to make a team and sort of ‘represent’. But I was the only one (current serving) present last year at Rotorua even though I tried to get a few others on board.
Maybe a past & present team is possible in the future who knows.
I’m surprised NZSRA have not moved back to Waiouru, and opted to go with Rotorua again, there is no good reason that I’m aware of why the range cannot be booked for a weekend to host the nationals, other than something political and NZSRA committee reluctance to do it.
I suspect it comes from nzdf. The legislation changes mean that nzdf can't put in a team, so they get no benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
Something like this 2020 SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE - COMPETITION DYNAMICS
Might be of interest but it requires a lit more overhead with safety staff do again nzdf probably wont be interested. Nzdf is risk averse and the beauracracy overhead means it takes time to change.
The Competition Dynamic Matches look awesome and are a massive step up from anything run in NZ at the moment. I would love to put on an event like that and only really lack a suitable property to pull it off... well i lack a suitable property and possibly competitors who are willing to commit to paying the subsequent entry fee. I have been running hunter class, medium range (out to ~600m) and long range (out to ~1100m) rifle shooting matches for some years now. I would expect the entry fee to be a minimum of $200 per person based on a two day event - based upon ~40 competitors that looks like an income of at least $8,000 but i can tell you now a large, complex, professional event will chew through that easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Mouse
Matches on the Defence Force training area (e.g. Waiouru) require someone in the Army to manage the zone bookings and de-conflict with any actual training going on. On top of that there is range templating to complete and get approved - this requires course design well in advance. Then we start moving into competitor safety briefings, inductions covering blinds, emergency plans, comms plans with range control, etc. You would need to put all this together and get it signed off by Range Control and all of this is massively easier if you have someone in the Army on board. Personally, i would love to offer to set an event like this but Army needs to benefit out of it as well - maybe entry fees go towards donations to NZ Fallen Heroes Trust, NZSAS Trust, No Duff, etc. And on top of that we have the course of fire available for them a day or two early to have some fun on.
Yep, I'm ex RNZE so understand the beauracracy of what is involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillie
I've contacted taranaki long range shooters. They seem like they would be open to consider an event like this. I had the impression of them being able to be a host for an event that was already organized. To do an event of that scale would probably need an already established organization to get the resources to make it successful.
Planning, safety staff, range templates, steel targets, RSOs, referees, finance. It would be a big job. NZDA "might" be interested if there was a hunter class. I think the Wellington branch did a biathlon last year?
Nz service rifle would have the skill sets but I haven't seen much interested when I put feelers out at nationals and Auckland events.
Yep, I help TLRS with their bigger competitions. To my knowledge they do not have access to a property big / suitable enough to run an event in the Competition Dynamics style - but TLRS and I have discussed it more than a couple of times. In my experience NZDA will not be interested - GPRE have run a hunter based heptathlon (hiking, observation, first aid, distance estimation, simple map navigation, shooting, flora/fauna ID) with a big prize table and after 5 years of running it we stopped because it simply wasn't supported. I ran a biathlon event with the Ruahine NZDA branch last year... Long Valley Station (Wellington) ran a hunter's biathlon style event a few years ago but i didn't hear about it last year. NZSRA has a skill set but their matches are fairly static...Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Mouse
Ah ...
So its like the Hihitahi Challenge on steroids.
We'd need to incorporate the lessons from that:
It's bloody good fun.
Not many people are confident enough of their all round skills to put them on the line in open competition. They have the ability but doubt themselves or else are just not into competitions (more likely).
A lot of people who can, would rather spend the weekend hunting.
A few people were put off, I think, by the idea of walking 10km round easy farm tracks. But 30km at Waiouru over 2 days would be an easy do for people used to mountain marathons.
A bit more service like flavour could attract more competitors. Yet detract from acceptability to both the general public and hunters.
To weight up the hunting theme, we could have say centrefire with snapshot bush hunt, running boar, deer (maybe "trophy stag amongst hinds" ) at 100 - 200m, a tahr/ chamois stage at 300-400m and a steel plate stage at 600 - 1000m. Then rimfire problems like the nearby rat, a possum in tree, running rabbit, standing hare, a 150m magpie, 200m extreme steel and so on. I'm not sure if shotgun would add to it or not. Hard for a pair to carry 3 guns.
I think the key would b to start small and build up. Moderate levels of competitors. It would help to find out what works well and what should be changed, while needin less land initially. Id loe to do it, but it really does need some financial horsepower behind it. Just getting all of the steel targets and having sufficient RSO's wouldnt be easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillie
The Ruahine event you are talking about with NZDA is the one I was thinking of, not wellington. I wanted to go but found out about it too late. Was it well attended? I broached the idea with auckland branch but didnt receive much enthusiasm.
This one in the US is like coast to coast with shooting.
"Anything other than round count with structured practice that leads to on demand performance under hunting conditions is mental and ballistic masturbation."
What a great quote. Something like this was always my intention with the incoming first centrefire rifle, but I had no structure or goal of what to acheive - just shoot through a couple hundred rounds until I felt confident enough to go out and know that if failure occurred it would be due to lack of hunting experience not lack of shooting experience.
