Anyone a member of SSANZ or The NZ NSA?

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Originally Posted by krewzr

Im sorry to but you are mistaken. I have read several recent NZ cases that do deal with the issue of possession for the purposes of the Arms Act. Robertson v Police is the most prevalent authority. As I said before, the Courts of New Zealand have expressly said that the meaning of possession for the purpose of the Arms Act is particular to that Act in this country. The meaning of "possession" in the context of other NZ statutes and other jurisidictions is not applicable (thats the stated view of the NZ judiciary.)

I don't think this is worth pursuing any further. Clearly their are several individuals on here who subscribe to the view that burying a firearm will not amount to parting with possession of it (although no-one has yet been able to cite an authority for that view.) You are entitled to your opinion. Lets just leave it there.

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Are the simple questions getting a little hard to answer?

No apology needed Happy. This is not what I would consider political although there are some that may consider it "hot air"

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Originally Posted by krewzr

Yes I agree: I think it is important when discussing legal issues to be accurate. The Arms Act refers to "restricted weapons" and the regulations deem certain objects, ranging from tasers and pepper sprays through to full auto guns as "restricted weapons." Weapons are also refered to in the purpose section of the Arms Act. However, I choose to draw a clear distinction between a weapon and a firearm. The authority that I rely on is any reputable dictionary; all of which refer to a weapon as being an object used to attack or defend; normally in inter-human relationships. I am uncomfortable with the proposition that civilian sporting firearms are used for this purpose and police are adamant that civilian firearms cannot be possessed for that purpose. I note that I clarifed that that was my personal stance on the discussion.

S66 of the Arms Act is something that a civilian gun owner would need to take into account, if they had decided to disposess themself by burial, as to where they would bury the firearm. It would probably need to be on public land: i.e in a remote conservation area or similar.

S19 of the regulations does not apply unless possession exists. The whole point of burial is dispossession; therefore once the firearms are not in the possession of the licence holder, the security precautions do not apply. There are similar comparisons in regard to criminal possesion of firearms - unlicensed persons in unlawful possession of a firearm are not required to store the firearm in the regulated security precautions.

I think this is matter that we ought to simply be able to hold different opinions on. I am not asking you to agree with me anymore than I am willing to concede that your view is the correct one.

Kind Regards
Richard Lincoln

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the phrase clutching at straws comes to mind
the argument is hugely subjective. the guidelines of this forum outline that we do not welcome political discussion. I think we will have a clean up of this thread when I'm at a computer

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Originally Posted by krewzr

Well AAB285 is a law. You have said that you are intending to comply with that law, but also that you would not comply with a law that restricted your Sunday morning sleep in.

I wanted to find out what you take into consideration and how you decide which laws to comply with and which you choose to disobey. I also wanted to know your view on how other people ought to make those decisions. Really the question is, how far does the government have to go, before you make a personal decision to say "NO"

I suppose I do not understand how people can criticise others who might make a well considered personal moral decision not to comply with AAB285 but at the same time, they would resort to civil disobediance if deprived of a sunday morning lay in.

How do we decide as individuals when to withdraw our consent to government infringement of our rights... and unless an individual can honestly say that he or she would obey every law without question, even one that demands their prescence at the nearest state gas chamber, how can it be right to claim the moral high-ground and denigrate a person or organisation who disobeys what is considered a clearly unjust and irrational law? It all seems a little hypocritical don't you think?

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If you do not wish to comply with AAB 285 then that's your prerogative and I have not, nor will I criticize you or anyone else for doing so. As adults, I believe everyone can make up their own mind about what's wrong and what's right. Personally I have far more important things to worry about and now is not the time for me to entertain political martyrdom - as noble as the cause may be.

Happy, Just to clarify I started the thread you refer to in the NSA forums. It is in the members section which as far as I am aware is not visable to Joe Public. So how you got there is anybods guess. I don't really care either way what organisation you join. I won't need to hide anything any where, I never do. I have all the appropriate endorsements / security to own/use what I do. I joined the NSA cause Colfos advise over the Stock debacle was just to roll over and comply.

I see you have a STI AR now, well if its a A cat rifle then you were able to buy it because the NSA won their case of the "Check your stock" interpretation.

Ditto all the parts now coming in for them (AR's) before that you needed special reasons.

No more from me on this.

I see you have a STI AR now, well if its a A cat rifle then you were able to buy it because the NSA won their case of the "Check your stock" interpretation.

Ditto all the parts now coming in for them (AR's) before that you needed special reasons.

No more from me on this.[/QUOTE]

Cheers Ears didnt see you write anything silly... Yes mines ACat but my safe is E just need to find some people to say great things about me now...

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Originally Posted by Ryan

If you do not wish to comply with AAB 285 then that's your prerogative and I have not, nor will I criticize you or anyone else for doing so. As adults, I believe everyone can make up their own mind about what's wrong and what's right. Personally I have far more important things to worry about and now is not the time for me to entertain political martyrdom - as noble as the cause may be.

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I'm not sure what I will do if AAB285 is enacted (and there are some doubts that it will be) but if anyone decides that being told you can't hold your firearm 3 degrees more to the vertical without a special endorsement is about as ridiculous as being told you can't sleep in past 5am on Sunday morning... I certainly won't criticise them for taking a stance of civil disobediance.

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Originally Posted by Happy

What peed me off is that you talk about personal abuse in one of your comments then seems to me you go make Toby look like quite foolish in that posting.

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Happy I don't really follow what you're saying but if I can clarify the comment quoted above.

I was not complaining about personal abuse. My point was that trying to negate the validity of a persons argument by attacking the person rather than the argument is a flawed form of debate that is usually resorted to by those who actually cannot raise a valid counter argument. Otherwise known as "shoot the messenger."

My comment about Toby was not intended to make him look foolish. I think he is very astute and has obviously thought through his feelings on this subject and arrived at the conclusion that, yes... sometimes a person cannot comply with a law because it falls outside what they can morally accept.

Kind regards
Richard Lincoln

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Originally Posted by Happy

Sorry about that NOT !!!

Reeks of Old boys club old man say what..

Challenge remains change my mind. There is a place for the NRA but it needs to be absolutely without people at the top holding pissing competitions.. and in the public domain ensuring

all content can with stand any scrutineeing as to private agendas as we all know how one comment can be taken many ways as well as one suggestion.
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Methinks the pissing competitors aren't going to be happy, happy ... Remember, Some people a cause, some people need those contests in their lives.

The sad thing is, there probably is an issue that the wider hunting and shooting fraternity do need to deal with, but a lot of them will be less than keen to deal with 3rd year law students with too much time on their hands.



Tim

This kind of petty shit is rampant in the Kiwi hunting and shooting community

I only jumped on here to add some balance to the comments of KScott. The original discussion seemed to set the scene for a NSA v COLFO debate. I think NSA and COLFO are chalk and cheese and a comparison is pointless. Each organisation has its merits and its faults. Each also has its supporters and detractors.

What I personally hope for is that all civilian gun owners will put their efforts and resources into resisting irrational gun control laws that cannot be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. My greatest fear is that civilian gun owners will fight amoungst themselves in a blind lemmings stampede towards the sort of infringments on their rights that occurred in the UK and Australia.

So anyway... I'm a member of NSA and a financial supporter of COLFO. I think COLFO have useful role as a UN NGO for international representation of NZ civilian gun owners. NSA have a useful role keeping the domestic front lines secure. So +1 for both orgs from me.

Kind regards
Richard Lincoln

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Originally Posted by Beavis

This kind of petty shit is rampant in the Kiwi hunting and shooting community

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Yep based on past experiences the different shooting groups will be lining up and stepping over each to sell each other out providing they get to keep doing what they do.

Sooner all Licenced Firearms Owners wake up and stick together the better.

And Kiwi39 I think that that 3rd year law student you refer to is Richard Lincoln, the same one if I am not mistaken referred to in Police Vs Lincoln court case re the "Check your stock" thing.
NSA didn't appear till after. I could be completely wrong here though

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Originally Posted by krewzr

My point was that trying to negate the validity of a persons argument by attacking the person rather than the argument is a flawed form of debate that is usually resorted to by those who actually cannot raise a valid counter argument. Otherwise known as "shoot the messenger."

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And yet on your own forums I'm labelled "is a well known nay sayer and appologist (sic) of inferior intellect ..."

The NSA seems to have difficulty accepting they are simply a small, vocal, hypocritical minority.

This 'petty shit' Beavis ? Here ? Or on a closed forum where debate, reason and disagreement is accepted nor tolerated, especially if it's repeated outside the closed community. Personally I think it's a shame the openness other forums have that allow any member of the public to see discussion and viewpoints isn't tolerated on the NSA, yet god forbid anyone criticse them, because they're labelled sheeple and fools and we're one step away from Nazi Germany in the 1930's.

All I was after in starting this thread was to see which NZ shooting organisations would be worth supporting to fight for our rights as NZ citizens to own firearms, and to stop this silly bullshit about semi-auto's and types of stocks etc etc.

I've joined SSANZ (I'll admit the cheap subscription to my favourite gun magazine made that an easy call) and had the full intention of joining the NSA.

But after this shitfight I'm not so sure. I want to be represented by responsible citizens who are for the safe promotion of gun ownership, shooting sports and hunting. I don't want to be represented by an organisation that has members talking about burying (what would be, restricted) guns on public land. We don't need any more bad eggs making the gun community look bad. Especially when they get caught red handed with an "us vs them" attitude and turn around and have a go at people on this forum.

We're all gun owners, and we're all in this together. We can't afford to not be together on this. I'm still going to consider the NSA... as I said we can't afford to not stick together on this, but boy this has made me a lot more skeptical about it.

I used to be a member of SSANZ, but they have no clout and are withering away into nothing. If you read some of their past newsletters, you will see that their support of citizens owning guns to fight off govt terror and self defense goes further at times than what has been said by some NSA members. I suggest that if everybodies sensibilities are hurt by the NSA or SSANZ or what ever, then they go an school up on law and form a new organisation to rep shooters. I'll happily join. I'm tired of all this bitch fighting and political rhetoric. I just want to keep and shoot my guns. I'll pay my sub to whoever stands up to bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Beavis

I used to be a member of SSANZ, but they have no clout and are withering away into nothing. If you read some of their past newsletters, you will see that their support of citizens owning guns to fight off govt terror and self defense goes further at times than what has been said by some NSA members. I suggest that if everybodies sensibilities are hurt by the NSA or SSANZ or what ever, then they go an school up on law and form a new organisation to rep shooters. I'll happily join. I'm tired of all this bitch fighting and political rhetoric. I just want to keep and shoot my guns. I'll pay my sub to whoever stands up to bullshit.

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Totally agree 100%

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Originally Posted by Beavis

I'm tired of all this bitch fighting and political rhetoric. I just want to keep and shoot my guns. I'll pay my sub to whoever stands up to bullshit.

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+1

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Originally Posted by RimfireNZ

All I was after in starting this thread was to see which NZ shooting organisations would be worth supporting to fight for our rights as NZ citizens to own firearms, and to stop this silly bullshit about semi-auto's and types of stocks etc etc.

I've joined SSANZ (I'll admit the cheap subscription to my favourite gun magazine made that an easy call) and had the full intention of joining the NSA.

But after this shitfight I'm not so sure. I want to be represented by responsible citizens who are for the safe promotion of gun ownership, shooting sports and hunting. I don't want to be represented by an organisation that has members talking about burying (what would be, restricted) guns on public land. We don't need any more bad eggs making the gun community look bad. Especially when they get caught red handed with an "us vs them" attitude and turn around and have a go at people on this forum.

We're all gun owners, and we're all in this together. We can't afford to not be together on this. I'm still going to consider the NSA... as I said we can't afford to not stick together on this, but boy this has made me a lot more skeptical about it.

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I think both COLFO and NSA promote safe gun ownership, shooting sports and hunting.

We know historically (from 1992) that in the aftermath of legislation that places unjustified restrictions on firearms, a certain percentage of civilian gun owners will reach the point of civil disobediance; we would rather see these CGOs bury their gun in a safe place out of harms way, and safely preserved in cosmoline until the law is changed, rather than see them get prosecuted for having a gun they ought not to have or worse still sell it to the gangs or drugs dealers.

As I discussed with Ryan, there comes a point when each individual makes a moral decision that enough is enough; they make a conscious and conscientious decision to withdraw consent and resort to civil disobediance. You may not agree with your neighbours decision to disobey the law that states that all even numbered properties are forfieted to the crown; you may instead sit on your hands knowing that your odd numbered property is safe (for now anyway) ... but the different points at which we each reach the limit of our tolerance ought not to prevent us uniting for the common good of ensuring that neither odd or even numbered property is forfieted to the crown.

Kind regards
Richard Lincoln

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Originally Posted by Beavis

I'm tired of all this bitch fighting and political rhetoric. I just want to keep and shoot my guns. I'll pay my sub to whoever stands up to bullshit.

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+1

As we all will especially if they show maturity and self control and don't do shit or make comments that not only makes them look silly but disassociates us normal people Bury my guns f off dug 1500 fence post holes last few years I m over digging holes what's the new age no work required alternative please ??

This thread is over

If you want to discuss your views, do it on your own forum Richard