bolt failure P14

That's it mucko, back on the horse:thumbsup:

Hell Mucko that was a bit close for comfort. Glad there was no major injury involved. Might be a bit shy to pull the trigger again on the 264 Mag.

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Originally Posted by csmiffy

@gundoc interesting.

So in this case (obviously a bit more investigation needed) it wasn't actually the action that has failed? More so the case and that has found the weak point, in this instance a possibly weak bolt?
@mucko that's shithouse but thank feck you are ok.
On a lighter note you don't have a slightly used 264 barrel for sale?

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the fracturing bolt allowed the case to seperate it looks like the recoil lugs let go.

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Originally Posted by gundoc

Any good condition M17 will handle either cartridge well but I made sure I built my own .30/06 long range rifle on a Winchester M17 action. M17 actions by Eddystone, Remington and Winchester were made of nickel steel as opposed to the carbon steel of the earlier P14.

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the 6.5/06 is running psi in the 50's the 30/06ai i dont have pressure data but its pushing 200ft/sc faster then standard 30/06. would x raying them be of any benefit.

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Originally Posted by Mooseman

Hell Mucko that was a bit close for comfort. Glad there was no major injury involved. Might be a bit shy to pull the trigger again on the 264 Mag.

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hey mate, once i sort a new action it will be sweet. its just a barrel now action good for parts as it bent. in every way.

6.5/06 and .30/06 run in the same pressure range. X-rays wont reveal as much as conventional crack testing. If there was some major flaw (inclusion of foreign matter, etc) in the steel an x-ray would probably pick it up, but a major problem would usually be picked up in the proof testing which is in the order of 75,000 psi.

I am not a gunsmith.
I dont work on guns for a living.

However I do do crack repair on a weekly basis, some non critical some extremely critical.

Having used penitrant dyes, mag particle testing and sending stuff away for xray reguarly I can say penitrant dyes would be a total waste of time and produce a unclear result on something like a bolt.....where the dyes are good is where you can see a crack and are looking for other cracks or the end of it on say a big housing or something like that....large non critical parts =good.

Mag particle testing with an experienced operator would pick it up tho most would be used to dealing with much larger parts so some could be missed.

Xray "should" pick up anything.....if the guy or girl looking at it knows their game.

If you are paying for it then tell them of the failure and what to look for.

Its your vision/life.

Glad your OK - you sure are a lucky man.

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Originally Posted by Jaco Goosen

Glad your OK - you sure are a lucky man.

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heck yeah man so lucky my dad wasnt picking body up off the paddock. even the extractor was blown to pieces only have the rear piece left the band that goes around the bolt was wrapped around the action. action is to bent to use. have a timmny trigger and a handful of bits left.

@mucko, you win the NZHS award for most improved looks for 2019 though :thumbsup:

Jokes aside, glad you kept your sight, that's a fucking biggie

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Originally Posted by mucko

heck yeah man so lucky my dad wasnt picking body up off the paddock. even the extractor was blown to pieces only have the rear piece left the band that goes around the bolt was wrapped around the action. action is to bent to use. have a timmny trigger and a handful of bits left.

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Man well what ever survived has to go on the next build.....as all the jinxed bits got fecked on that last round so only the good luck bits are left? :thumbsup:

@mucko. Glad it was no worse mate. Couple of questions. Forgive me please if you have considered these points, which is probable.
Trim length of cases compared to chamber length; was there sufficient clearance?
Seating depth of ogive relative to lands? I.E. Avoid jam.
Hot primers?
Heavy walled brass?
Basic stuff, I know, and most likely you had those things already sorted. The other engineering issues are something I am not expert in so cant comment on those.
All the best for fast recovery.

Crikey , bloody mess mate , buy yourself another rifle for Christmas .

Sneeze Mike that's bloody close. At least you get Christmas with your family. Get well soon mate and enjoy your break.

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Originally Posted by Tommy

@mucko, you win the NZHS award for most improved looks for 2019 though :thumbsup:

Jokes aside, glad you kept your sight, that's a fucking biggie

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Wife reckons its a improvement

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Originally Posted by Woody

@mucko. Glad it was no worse mate. Couple of questions. Forgive me please if you have considered these points, which is probable.
Trim length of cases compared to chamber length; was there sufficient clearance?
Seating depth of ogive relative to lands? I.E. Avoid jam.
Hot primers?
Heavy walled brass?
Basic stuff, I know, and most likely you had those things already sorted. The other engineering issues are something I am not expert in so cant comment on those.
All the best for fast recovery.

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case length was fine,
huge jump to the lands about 200 thou mag box restricted coal to around book value.
federal mag primers
norma brass, had some loose primer pockets, never had tight fitting cases never had one hard to close.
checked burn rate to confirm correct powder.
metal were recoil lugs broke were a different colour to the fracture through the gas port suggesting a out fatigue pattern.
if i did something wrong i havent found it yet.
i surmise that when the bolt let go the ass blew out of the case, i dont have much of the brass base left, i haven't found evidence through reloading diary and my systems that i overloaded or produced a round outside the specs of the adi manual, pressure would of been around 58,000psi and .8gr below max book load.

hope you and the boss are have a nice Christmas

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Originally Posted by Boaraxa

Crikey , bloody mess mate , buy yourself another rifle for Christmas .

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i have a few spare ones for now. lol

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Originally Posted by Gapped axe

Sneeze Mike that's bloody close. At least you get Christmas with your family. Get well soon mate and enjoy your break.

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cheers mate, it could of gone so much worse then what i got away with. black eye already fading but still got to be careful not to strain the eye.

@mucko. Fair enough. Just one thought. Seems more likely to me that case failed by head separation before the bolt. When you mentioned loose primer pockets I thought to myself that cases may be on the way out. Suggest you see if you have any cases left. Take into a dark room and look into them using a tiny light.Look for a dark groove up little from the web. I had one give way on extraction a few years ago. When I checked others I found several more. Resizing off the shoulder instead of off the belt is the only way to control this. The long chamber in that rifle was stretching brand new Norma brass about 12thou at shoulder, which transferred brass from above the web. Incipient Case head separation is sometimes hard to detect especially in belted magnums but I understand can in wordt case scenario create the situation like yours.

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Originally Posted by Woody

@mucko. Fair enough. Just one thought. Seems more likely to me that case failed by head separation before the bolt. When you mentioned loose primer pockets I thought to myself that cases may be on the way out. Suggest you see if you have any cases left. Take into a dark room and look into them using a tiny light.Look for a dark groove up little from the web. I had one give way on extraction a few years ago. When I checked others I found several more. Resizing off the shoulder instead of off the belt is the only way to control this. The long chamber in that rifle was stretching brand new Norma brass about 12thou at shoulder, which transferred brass from above the web. Incipient Case head separation is sometimes hard to detect especially in belted magnums but I understand can in wordt case scenario create the situation like yours.

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the cases were alway full length resized cases only done about 5 rounds each and nothing hot. im going to pull all the projectiles and bin the cases but will check them first.

Really glad your ok mate.

@mucko. Yep. I found if I full length resized I had case head separation within 5 loads. Went to sizing for headspace off the shoulder which extended case life a bit.

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Originally Posted by jakewire

Really glad your ok mate.

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cheers mate, im healing fast and thought doing a thread about it might find some answers to what happened and maybe save someone else going thou it.

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Originally Posted by Woody

@mucko. Yep. I found if I full length resized I had case head separation within 5 loads. Went to sizing for headspace off the shoulder which extended case life a bit.

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i had a google of failed h&h cases all the images show them failing about 4mm above the belt, from whats left of my it failed at the belt lower then where the die gets to. its hard to tell how thick it should of been or to tell if the case failed then the bolt or bolt then case. i would of thought a failed case would just gas out the ports and not blow it apart.

@mucko. Fair comment. Its jusy a possibility to consider is all. As you correctly state, head separation usually occurs a bit above the belt. Certainly in my experience too.
The final analysis of cause will be of interest to all on here who reload. It is intriguing , but bloody bad luck it occurred at all.

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Originally Posted by Woody

@mucko. Fair comment. Its jusy a possibility to consider is all. As you correctly state, head separation usually occurs a bit above the belt. Certainly in my experience too.
The final analysis of cause will be of interest to all on here who reload. It is intriguing , but bloody bad luck it occurred at all.

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its all good mate, right or wrong i would like piece of mind to find the right answer to what happened, if there's lapse in my reload procedure i can improve that if its random metallurgy causing random bolt failure then i simply move on and buy a custom action brandnew that will handle the 62,000psi i might run, its been a good thread and getting some excellent questions and answers.

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

First thought I had was Eddystone action - Gundoc confirms that. Some of those were tested by writers in the past and failed at surprisingly low levels - the more work the actions had done the lower the margin for safety and the earlier they poos'd it. Would suggest glass-hard action with a fatigue issue that finally let go. That's the danger with the p14 scrubbed BSA actions - probably safe enough for .303 but they got a reputation for magnum conversions and the BSA ones don't have their parentage still visible...

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your in my neck of the woods if you want to look at the bits and give your opinion. im in te puna

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

First thought I had was Eddystone action - Gundoc confirms that. Some of those were tested by writers in the past and failed at surprisingly low levels - the more work the actions had done the lower the margin for safety and the earlier they poos'd it. Would suggest glass-hard action with a fatigue issue that finally let go. That's the danger with the p14 scrubbed BSA actions - probably safe enough for .303 but they got a reputation for magnum conversions and the BSA ones don't have their parentage still visible...

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you have to look at other bits to get a idea of parentage all attachments are E. my dad just built a 338 edge on the same action for him and his mate, after witnessing my injury he is pulling the pin on them and will look for another action.

Damm might have a bit of a flinch next time you pull the trigger ,glad there are no permanent injures

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Originally Posted by 17brno

Damm might have a bit of a flinch next time you pull the trigger ,glad there are no permanent injures

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just about normal again whatever normal is for me lol. i got off very lucky

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

First thought I had was Eddystone action - Gundoc confirms that. Some of those were tested by writers in the past and failed at surprisingly low levels - the more work the actions had done the lower the margin for safety and the earlier they poos'd it. Would suggest glass-hard action with a fatigue issue that finally let go. That's the danger with the p14 scrubbed BSA actions - probably safe enough for .303 but they got a reputation for magnum conversions and the BSA ones don't have their parentage still visible...

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@Mauser308 not saying the action is a bit dodgy but in this case it seems to be the bolt that let go. If so that's a different animal altogether

Its a rebarreled action in this instance. Nevertheless, for better case life with belted cases it is usually better to headspace from shoulder rather than the belt.
Regardless, it appears , as Mucko and Gundoc surmise , the issue lies rearward of the cartridge itself.

Greetings Mucko,
Congratulations on your escape. Looking at your load of AR2213SC at 61 grains I wonder if you have been the victim of old data. Hodgdon has produced some modern data for the .264 recently in psi which shows 61 grains as near max for the 129 grains and way over max for the 140 grains. Nick Harvey was giving much higher loads at least up until his 6th edition which would be excessive to dangerous based on the current Hodgdon data.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Mucko,
Congratulations on your escape. Looking at your load of AR2213SC at 61 grains I wonder if you have been the victim of old data. Hodgdon has produced some modern data for the .264 recently in psi which shows 61 grains as near max for the 129 grains and way over max for the 140 grains. Nick Harvey was giving much higher loads at least up until his 6th edition which would be excessive to dangerous based on the current Hodgdon data.
Regards Grandpamac.

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ADI data online and 9th edition print. thats their most up to date data specs and i was still .8 under max. but in saying that i dont know when the data was last reviewed. there was zero indication of high pressure in the 3 shoots beforehand. zero function issues to indicate bolt stretch or deformity, even the remaining case in the chamber looked normal minus the base. Thanks for you feed back its worth looking into that further.

@mucko. Out of curiosity; what projectile? -and was it seated deeper than previous tests? An unlikely cause in light of no previous pressure signs though.

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Originally Posted by Woody

@mucko. Out of curiosity; what projectile? -and was it seated deeper than previous tests? An unlikely cause in light of no previous pressure signs though.

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127gr barnes LRX

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Originally Posted by mimms2

Ah, quite right. My bad.

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i will double check but think the chambering is a deep throat so the power doesnt burn out the lands so bad.

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Originally Posted by Woody

@mucko. Out of curiosity; what projectile? -and was it seated deeper than previous tests? An unlikely cause in light of no previous pressure signs though.

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thats the bit that haunts me mate, i cant find the evidence of the failure, only the discoloration of the steel where the bolt blew apart.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Mucko,
Congratulations on your escape. Looking at your load of AR2213SC at 61 grains I wonder if you have been the victim of old data. Hodgdon has produced some modern data for the .264 recently in psi which shows 61 grains as near max for the 129 grains and way over max for the 140 grains. Nick Harvey was giving much higher loads at least up until his 6th edition which would be excessive to dangerous based on the current Hodgdon data.
Regards Grandpamac.

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i checked the hodgdon data online its identical to ADI

Greetings Again,
I checked the Barnes on line data for the 127 grain LRX BT. They don't list H4831SC or H1000 (AR2213SC and AR2217 respectively) for that matter. They do list RL22 and IMR7828SSC (both slower than AR2213SC) at 58.3 and 56.0 grains max. The Hodgdon/ADI data is for the 129 grain Hornady Interlock. This is noted as a projectile developing less pressure than average while the Barnes projectiles develop notably more. Barnes even lists Retumbo (AR2225) at 62.7 grains max with the 127 grain LRX and this is way slower than AR2213SC. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but I think that the blow up was due to an overload. Barnes projectiles need special data with loading especially with the .264 Winchester which is known to be a bit grumpy at times. At least you didn't use Nick Harvey's 6th edition load of 68 grains. More than the rifle could have been scrap with that.
Regards and commiserations Grandpamac