Thread: Changes in the impact point

ebf, I was more or less confirming or agreeing with Gillie. Train so you shall fight is an expression that justifies training, like you intend to operate.

Yes there were plenty of so called natural shots in the Army. Some of the best ones knew fuck all about ballistics and principles as well, funny enough.
Natural point of aim is imo, is most important, but finding it in its true form in other positions is subtle and takes a lot of practice.

I have tested the differing impact versus holding method many times over the years. The worst performers are always the softer synthetic stocked rifles. I have experienced an eight inch of impact point change at 100 yards with the worst one (AR15) when rested on a hard surface. Many other bolt guns with plastic stocks will also throw the shots all over the place particularly when shot off hard surfaces using the non tilting type Bipods. It is very easy to twist load these. Although poor fore end support (read block of wood here) will mostly result in shots going high, this is not guaranteed. Even bedded wooden stocked (including laminated) and fiberglass stocked rifles will throw shots off centre when fired in that manner, generally not as far off though.
If you want to sight in for <100 yard shots in the roar with any rifle, just do it as you intend to shoot it in the bush, with the same ammo you are going to hunt with.

For the record I use a Caldwell cradle for all load development, as this takes as much of "me" out of the process as possible. I'm only looking for tight groups here and not so fussed on point of impact. All subsequent sighting in is done in the actual shooting position I'll use when I shoot for keeps. I will often shoot a hunting rifle off my pack (as fore end support), then bipod, then sling prone, sling sitting, sling standing, and free hand standing to check differing zero points. All will usually result in slightly differing zeros. With a good hold technique the effect can me minimized. I find big, heavy, free floated, fiberglass stocked rifles usually have the least variation. They are also the least likely to be dragged through the scrub after animals.

Originally Posted by R93

Natural point of aim is imo, is most important, but finding it in its true form in other positions is subtle and takes a lot of practice.

Very true I'm a bit of a stuck record on natural point of aim. IMO its the holy grail of shooting well...

Originally Posted by ebf

Very true I'm a bit of a stuck record on natural point of aim. IMO its the holy grail of shooting well...

Yep, absolutely agree. Teaching it in prone is not too hard. Most people i have seen don't think they need to worry about it when shooting off a bipod... and then they wonder why the rifle bounces sideways. Learning natural point of aim in the sitting kneeling and standing positions can be difficult, adjusting your natural POA while in position can be even more difficult to learn

Originally Posted by Gillie

Yep, absolutely agree. Teaching it in prone is not too hard. Most people i have seen don't think they need to worry about it when shooting off a bipod... and then they wonder why the rifle bounces sideways. Learning natural point of aim in the sitting kneeling and standing positions can be difficult, adjusting your natural POA while in position can be even more difficult to learn

yup, fun watching people have a light-bulb moment when training for IPSC. tell them to close their eyes before drawing, and then see where the pistol ends up pointing. when you add movement or forced positions it gets pretty interesting... one of the training clinics I attended we did a lot of fire at targets with both front and rear sights obscured by patches... pure body position and muscle memory.