Different way to zero

Hi Guys ,

Just been to the range to zero a scope , and it has to be done a different way than the normal way of clicking the knobs to the required measurement , shooting & then slipping the knobs to read zero .

The scope is a USO MST-100 ( old USMC type ) , and the way you zero IT is shoot it with say Elevation on 100 & Windage on 0 , then you loosen the allen screws on both the knobs , then put the crosshair back on the aiming point , and hold/sandbag the rifle so it will not move , then put a allen key into the top center of the knobs , and with the rifle very still , turn the allen keys while looking thru the scope , and adjust the reticle to be on the aim point .

Due to the design of the scope , you have to use this exact procedure , nothing else will work with this scope .

SO thinking about it , you could use the same procedure on other scopes as well , with maybe only a few rounds used , BUT the tricky put is keeping the rifle absolutely still while looking thru the scope & turing the knobs etc , and be prepared to turn in the wrong direction to start with , before you pick up on it and go the right way .

Here's pics of the rifle and scope .

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...pse4559b7d.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...psa64d5537.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...psdd986e97.jpg


Later Chris

How did it shoot?

Those MST100s look so cool


e: what's it calibrated for?

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Originally Posted by ChrisF

... and with the rifle very still , turn the allen keys while looking thru the scope , and adjust the reticle to be on the aim point...

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I think you mean point of impact here, not aim point. You start with the reticle on the point of aim and adjust it to the point of impact, without moving the rifle.

I thought that was a common practice. Eg bore sighting

Its to early to say for sure , lets just say , at this stage I am very happy so far , and IF its not , I will just drop another coldhammer forged barrel on her , and move on .
Yeap the MST-100 is cammed for 173-175gr bullet at 2600fps ( I am using 175gr SMKs ) , and I am lucky to have 2x MST-100s , one on this rare Parker Hale M87 ( C3A1 clone ) , and one ready to go onto a Rem700 thats being made into a M40A1 clone at the moment .
These scopes have a parallex adjustment in the front thats meant to be adjsuted to the range you want and then locked down with a spanner , so its a re-settable rather than a readily adjustable para feature , and TRUST me on this , NEVER ever touch it , ensure its locked OFF , and forget it exists ( and YES that is from actuall experience ) .
IF you donot , expect to spend a day trying to get it sorted , and only to give UP .
At this stage , I am VERY happy with this rifle , its a dream come true for me , and a build thats taken years & years ( closer to a decade ) .

Later Chris

At no time did I mention looking thru the bore ?
So its not exactly boresighting .
Bore sighting to me is only a very rough method , to get you on paper .
This can be used to actually fully zero a rifle .
Any way , just thought it would be another way for guys to zero , this scope manual also has a measurement to confirm the scopes zeroed correctly , and its able to be done at 900 inches , ie 25yds , with the scope set on 3 ( 300yds ) .

From actuall experience , as NICE as these scopes are , the world has turned , and you can buy better Tac scopes , to me these scopes really ONLY make sense , to stubborn Bas$%^ds , that have too , want too make a replica of either the Canadian C3A1 or USMC M40A1 sniper rifles.

At the moment , their are some neat smallish scopes coming out for rifles , that make more practical sense , like the 2.5-10x42 NF or the new Bushy 3-12x44mm LRHS .

Later Chris

What sort of bag setup are you using Chris that negates the rifle moving away from P.O.A under recoil?

Also, agree with Gimp. The MST100's look mean!!

It moves under recoil , BUT I re-align the crosshair after , YEAP as to whats holding the rifle up , its a Harris bipod at front , and a black plastic rubbish bag filled with black tactical , beach sand .

I need another type of rear bag , as this black plastic bag is leaking bloody sand every where , its cheap thro

Sounds like a terrible and frustrating way to sight in unless you can lock the rifle down hard from start to finish.

I tried something similar last week - sighting in by adjusting the reticle to the initial point of impact.

The scope was mounted and "boresighted" in a shop but even at 50 yards it was way off.

I had the rifle in a Caldwell Lead Sled so it was fairly easy to hold the rifle on the initial point of aim and the adjust to the initial point of impact.

New rifle first 9x shots and average factory ammunition - here are some photos and notes.

Attachment 22199

Attachment 22200

As I said , WITH this scope , ( MST-100 ) , you have NO choice in the way you do the zeroing .
Its not too bad , as along as you have the means to keep the rifle in position , ie sand bags & bipod etc , IT is very different to what most are sue to however .

And IF you did not pickup on IT , I'm Loving IT !!!!!

Just curious, why is that the only way? Why can't you sight it the normal way?

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Originally Posted by Savage1

Just curious, why is that the only way? Why can't you sight it the normal way?

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+1. Do the turrets not click at all? Isnt it just like having a custom turret with m marks on it?

Its to do with how the scope is designed , no clicks at all in the internal mech , detents/clicks on the actual knobs I think .
It has a internal cam profiled for the cal/load it was designed for ONLY .

Trust me its the only way to zero this scope .

The Marines usually carry the zeroing out at 300yds , ie with the E knob at 3 ( 300yds ) & 0 on the W knob , then undo the small set screws on both knobs , fire a group , then once the center of that group is marked , then they move the reticle onto that center of impact using the allen key thru the center of each knob , then re-tighten the small screws again , then fire again to confirm the zero is good .

The 900 inch ( 25yd ) method of confirming zero , is set for 300 & impact should be 5/8 inche high , or set 500 for a 2 1/4 inche high impact '


Later Chris

Yeah , you know what I meant , I type with one finger , and tech I'm not .

Crosshair on aimpoint ,rifle still , and move crosshair onto the impact point with allen keys thru center of knobs , then re-tighten small screws etc , and confirm zero by shooting again .

Sh%t some actually reads this ??
Me I just look at the pictures .

Later Chris

Sight In Your Rifle in Two Shots - YouTube

yip, seen that kind of way.

I may be wrong but I'm sure it was @Tussock that showed a target one shot off and next shot center?

Would have to ask him but I assume he clicked the scope like normal

That's the way I get all mine into the bull after bore sighting

Exactly

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Originally Posted by Spanners

That's the way I get all mine into the bull after bore sighting

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Me too. Works very well.

The calibre/load this scope is cammed for , is 308win , with a 173gr bullet at 2600fps , the 175gr SMK at the same 2600fps , tracks virtually the same , my load is close to this , I will have to crony it from this rifle to get exact info as to the speed in this particular rifle , i know what the load does in my 26 inche barrelled rifle .

Later Chris

I thought this was how everyone does it ?

Certainly the best way as long as the rifle is in a proper rest when the adjustment is made.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...sightingin.jpg

From an NZ hunting book of 70's vintage, I don't recall which one.

yeap ,

mines just usually , done on a farm , and usually not flat ground , and usually have a choice of lying in cow sh%$ or prickles , and at less than ideal distances , also due to terrain & farm layout or animals etc , in simple terms , a crap firing position .
The pic of the Parker Hale on a bench , is the 1st time in several yrs that I have used a proper range , and this actual position is good for 100yds ONLY , and thats IT no closer or further , due to dip in land etc .

So in short very rare for me to have a good firing position .

Farm I shoot on has some long ranges etc , usually across a gully , and position is always sloping up or down hill etc .



Later Chris

Am I the only one who goes to the target measures and clicks accordingly not hold the gun dead still and whatever?

I often do it that way Toby, depends if I have a good solid rest or not.

Sounds too hard and messy.

Bipod on rifle to steady on hall floor
Use Mk1 eyeball at 20m.
Align scope to bore dead zero on dot on door.
Fire 1 round at 25m target on range.
Switch to 100m fire 1 round.
Adjust and fire second round.
Adjust and fire 3 shot group to confirm.
Done.

The two different ways of sighting in mentioned here are exactly the same as each other. You either try and walk your poi across the target to your crosshairs or you walk the crosshair into poi. Both ways require the same amount of clicks in the same directions but you are looking at the process from two different angles.

The main reason why I look thru and move hairs to the poi and not measure moa is because a lot of scopes don't always move the right amount when measuring the distance and dialing it in.

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Originally Posted by Toby

Am I the only one who goes to the target measures and clicks accordingly not hold the gun dead still and whatever?

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Nah I kinda do both - without getting off my ass to go check. The only sacrifice with an FFP scope is that you might only be able to budge it across in full cm increments. To me that's fine.

The only thing I'd add is that this method of zeroing is only for good shooters who are absolutely right on and know their cold bore really well (My CBS is 2c left and 2 down). Then it settles in

No Toby , I still do the same sometimes , it depends on the range setup , however , with most of my scopes being FFP , and now having a Spotter with a FFP reticle , its easy to measure the adjustment needed with either the rifle scope or spotter .
I have found having a reticle in my spotting scope very handy , and now would be hard pressed to buy one that does not have a reticle .

this MST-100 scope has to be done only one way , and I knew that , BUT I did try to zero it using the normal way , and its not going to work with this scope .
The scope is a bit of a pain to zero , but once done , just snug up the set screws and forget IT .

Later Chris

Hi Chris,
The reason your MST-100 adjusts the way it does is so the gunts can not fiddle with the settings, The German and English snipers in both world wars scopes were set up the same way if re-zeroing was necessary the rifle went back to the armorer, the Americans used hunting scopes up until recently,
The MST series may be the first non operator adjustable scopes in US service, I have an early S&B PM10x42 sniper scope that is camed to 600m to zero it the turret is taken off and it is zeroed like a normal click adjustable scope the turret is put back at the range it was zeroed at, quite simple works a treat I think it's camed for Federal 168 Gold Match ammo I shoot 155 Lapuas so get more than 600m.

I love my MST-100s , actually the hand book tells the sniper how to zero his scope , and it is what it is , however the parallex feature is actually very unfriendly to the end user , and so much so , I & others reccomend , that YOU donot touch the bloody thing , it needs a special spanner to loosen the front lens housing , But the spanners not the problem , its just a tool like a allen key etc , the design of the front lens assembly is the problem , its not tracked or spring loaded so adjustment is at best hap hazard .
As much as I love my MSTs , as I have said earlier the world has turned since 1979 , and their are much better sniper scopes out there now for general use , but they are still a tuff & reliable scope .

It looks good on either the Rem 700 ( M40A1 ) or the Parker Hale M87 ( C3A1 ) , only 3 groups used these scopes & none where ever made for civie use untill USO did the upgrade in the early 2000s , the 3 users where , USMC & Canadian Army in the main & a few to special FBI units ( on Rem700s ) .

Other than the 500 or so Canadian sniper rifles ( Parker Hales ) , all these type of scopes are on Remington 700 short actions , so in short very rare to see them mounted on something other than a Rem700 .

Later Chris

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Originally Posted by gimp

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...sightingin.jpg

From an NZ hunting book of 70's vintage, I don't recall which one.

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Old school still rocks :thumbsup:

No fancy shooting rests or multi tools required ...... A screwdriver, a 4x2 and a wooden box is all that's required.

Cheers
Pete