Double grouping

Rifle -7x57 98mauser action suppressed scope-nikko stirling game king not the best scope i know but was perfectly fine on the rifle i took it off ok so finally got to sit down with mrs northdudes rifle and see how it actually shoots and found it double groups but i didnt have enough ammo to try different things 1st shot bang on 2nd shot 4" directly above 3rd shot bang on 4th shot bang on 4" high so far checked mounts etc took action out of stock and cleaned out around where action sits wasnt to bad was shooting off bipod they were 1/2 to one inch groups so pretty good just 2 of them

Got a picture of the group dude?

I did have but the dog has turned it into dog poo :( the rifle was grouping well the only thing that has changed is i cleaned the barrel and changed from 2209 to 2208 powder but wouldnt think that would make it double group

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Originally Posted by northdude

I did have but the dog has turned it into dog poo :( the rifle was grouping well the only thing that has changed is i cleaned the barrel and changed from 2209 to 2208 powder but wouldnt think that would make it double group

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Well changing powder is changing the actual load so yeah could do all sorts of things now. Can really compare that to what it used to do with a different load.

It's very hard to catch this sort of thing on film but we shouldn't waste electrons speculating until you show us a pic northdude. "Dog ate my homework" doesn't cut it. The only time I've seen consistent double grouping is taking my suppressor on and off.

You describe classic double grouping as caused by crap bedding when the action jumps between two rest points due to recoil. Other things that influence barrel harmonics like changing hold, touching the barrel or preloading on a bipod so a free floated barrel has a contact point occasionally can also cause it.
I thought i had it once but it turned out i had a mixed box of 147 and 165 grain projectiles all at same coal, my how I laughed.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

You describe classic double grouping as caused by crap bedding when the action jumps between two rest points due to recoil. Other things that influence barrel harmonics like changing hold, touching the barrel or preloading on a bipod so a free floated barrel has a contact point occasionally can also cause it.
I thought i had it once but it turned out i had a mixed box of 147 and 165 grain projectiles all at same coal, my how I laughed.

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Been there and done that. [emoji16]

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Stupid question........

You didn’t mix up your two loads and were firing one old,one new, one old etc...

[emoji848]


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All the same load ill have a look on my backing board just had a thought that one target is still on it but only my last 4 shots ill put up a pic if its there

Blonde trying to group with a brunette, like oil and water!!

@stretch is the worst double grouper I know, they were 9 the other day :XD:

this one survived typical of what it was doing Attachment 116519

last 4 shots i had left obviously sideways the taped holes are someone else

my money would be on bedding as you have already checked scope mounts...did you check bases themselves????

yep they are screwed and epoxied on im starting to think possibly the cheap scope might of crapped out had a mate whos a good shooter have a go with it a couple of weekends ago and it was shooting good i need another scope for it anyway its a 7x57 mauser in a plastic stock possibly a ram line or similar just a bit of a hack rifle with enough grunt and a good cal to get the mrs into hunting

so Im guessing it sits in the stock and isnt bedded as such???? do you own a hot glue gun?????

yep i was thinking of pillar bedding it as ive done with a few of my rifles

I was thinking quick hot glue bedding job to "see" what happens,my little wallaby rifle still sitting in the hot glue job I did 8 years ago and still shooting tiny wee groups. you can always bed it properly afterwards if so desire.

how do you do it is it permanantly glued together

PM inbound...

cool cheers

Good to see the pic. I really dont like having other people shooting on my targets. It's like stirring someone else's porridge.

I do remember now I've had this myself once where the scope base screw had come loose ( two piece base and ring system). Had more of a random wandering up and down over 15cm than actual double grouping. The other time was a mate's P14 just got it sighted in at "25" and the check shots were a foot away. Sighted those in and after a while found we couldn't hit a rolled out close cell foam. The wood in the stock had split. Sorted by buying a new rifle and never looked back ...

Anyway I dont think you've said, "bases screws- check !" Yet. If youve got it apart for the hot glue job you might as well dismantle the whole mount system and reassemble it with loctite while you're about it.

The bases are screwed an epoxied to action they were like that when i got it

Epoxy deteriorates after 5 or 10 years. It's easy to replace it.
Some people would recommend a loctite 600 something that acts as a filler and adhesive for bonding the rail or mounts to the action.

Ok maybe a full dissasemble and reassemble migh be needed ill look at doing that when i find a half decent but not the price of a car scope to put on it given its just happened maybe the budget scope has crapoed out

First point of call for double grouping would be bedding.
Followed by scope, rings, base setup.
If you bed it make sure you use something stiff..something not like hot glue, lol.

ChrisW I take it you have never taken a 90s winchester lightweight model70 out of its stock then???? the way they were FACTORY BEDDED is almost eggzachary what you achieve with a good hot gluegun quicky....it will tell you if its worth taking time to do bedding properly....and its quick..really quick...no 48hour wait for araldite to set and hoping like stink you greased action enough and havent got it pernanently stuck in place.

Micky duck, I take it that model winchester would usually shoot 3 or even 5 shots under an inch straight from the box ?

In 25 years it hasn’t become a very widespread manufacturing technique.

Has anyone here used hot melt glue as a successful indicator that bedding was the problem and then got good results from formal rebedding alone ?

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Originally Posted by northdude

this one survived typical of what it was doing Attachment 116519

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Thanks for the pic northdude. Did that rifle ever shoot 1/2“ or 1“ groups in the past ?

To state the obvious: this thread has a lot of good things you can do to try and restore accuracy in a previously good rifle. It’s not just „double grouping“ they’re meant for.

Yes its very helpfull a couple of weeks ago it was shooting 1 inch comfortably with 2 different people shooting it kind of thinkig scope pooed out its a bydget thing anyway

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

Micky duck, I take it that model winchester would usually shoot 3 or even 5 shots under an inch straight from the box ?

In 25 years it hasn’t become a very widespread manufacturing technique.

Has anyone here used hot melt glue as a successful indicator that bedding was the problem and then got good results from formal rebedding alone ?

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yeah pretty much...its always shot well....Ive bedded it properly now and its piece of mind more than anything..

funnily enough my mini mauser zastava was similar and STILL sits on hot glue bedding...my big zastava was sitting bare NOTHING at all...no wonder she used to move around and clunk...