Dumb question about shooting

Alright, this has been a bit of a head scratcher for me.

Have a Bergara B14 18inch in 308, always been comfortable shooting out to 450yd, using the basic Belmont 150gr SP. I have switched ammo to the Sako 150gr SP Gamehead. Also upgraded scope(and had a massive muck around with GC that we won't go in to right now).

Have been able to sight and group sub moa at 100yds, moa at 200yds, and hitting a 12x12" gong at 300yds 4/5 times. But for the life of me(and the cost of ammo) I haven't been able to hit the 400yd gong. I've sent 30 rounds over 2 sittings in good weather and have not been able to. Spotter reckon the we're going all around it.

Having come from using cheap ammo, getting moa to sub moa hits at 400yds, to not being able to find the target once with "excellent ammo", has destroyed my confidence.

Can't get hold of more Belmont due to the shortages, but at this stage I would in a heart beat.

Anyone heard of this stuff tumbling at range?

Any suggestions or insights would be appreciated.

Get all the copper/ carbon out of your barrel first

Try again

Had the same with 7-08 last year, as said above, clean the barrel, and clean it again

If its a carbon ring, usually just forward of the chamber, then it will take some work to clean it out. But it sounds like your rifle likes a different ammo. Try some Federal Blue box or some other easily obtainable ammo. If that does the same, then maybe try to get some reloads made up to duplicate the Belmont ammo.
An issue I sometimes have is canting the rifle, and once you start get out a ways with a decent amount of drop it becomes very apparent.

If you are "going all around" the target at increased range, go back to paper and shoot a decent group at each range. Assess each group at each range for patterns of impact - looking to isolate mechanical error, shooter error and plain piss poor shot error... You by the law of averages should be able to land at least one or two on the gong especially if the only change is ammo - but the next issue is you've reported multiple changes at the same time in terms of scope, ammo and probably something else will come to light if you think hard enough about it as a change. Multiple changes make it a lot harder to work out what is causing your issue as you also now need to work out which change has lead up to what is causing your issue and you now have a two or three step faultfinding mission. On the plus side if you haven't changed it's not likely to be you as the operator, so put aside all confidence and ability questions and instead start thinking logically and also document everything...

^^^this

If you can put old scope back on to make sure you haven't got a doggy scope I had that happen before with a new scope & when it got sent back it come back that the cross hairs where moving round they replaced scope & all good after that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 7mmsaum

Get all the copper/ carbon out of your barrel first

Try again

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Thought this might be the case, and have had a couple of 3odd hour cleaning sessions and the barrel still looks rough as guts, but upon googling this, it sounds fairly common in Bergaras and they still shoot a treat.

Had to recant scope, so will see if that works. This ties in to the GC issues.

Which for more clarification involved a moving zero, a faulty rail, a damaged rifle, 3 remounts, and unkept promises.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by No.3

If you are "going all around" the target at increased range, go back to paper and shoot a decent group at each range. Assess each group at each range for patterns of impact - looking to isolate mechanical error, shooter error and plain piss poor shot error... You by the law of averages should be able to land at least one or two on the gong especially if the only change is ammo - but the next issue is you've reported multiple changes at the same time in terms of scope, ammo and probably something else will come to light if you think hard enough about it as a change. Multiple changes make it a lot harder to work out what is causing your issue as you also now need to work out which change has lead up to what is causing your issue and you now have a two or three step faultfinding mission. On the plus side if you haven't changed it's not likely to be you as the operator, so put aside all confidence and ability questions and instead start thinking logically and also document everything...

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Scope update was a muck around as above. I have recanted it now and will take another look, but my local range(Kaitoke) only goes to 200yds, so have very limited ability to get out to distance.

Went from a Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5-16x42 on Talley to a Swarovski Z3 4-12x50bt on a leupold rail and PRW rings.

Will try to get hold of some more Belmont from someone to see if I can at least rule that out. Probably the most effective way to check with the limited time i have available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocco

Had to recant scope, so will see if that works. This ties in to the GC issues.

Which for more clarification involved a moving zero, a faulty rail, a damaged rifle, 3 remounts, and unkept promises.

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Is that the deluxe service option

Use enough paper

Federal blue box shoots awesome out of my Bergara , give it a try.

Use a bigger bit of paper. Your spotter might not actually be competent.

All of the above but if you havnt got a good bubble level you are peeing into the wind.

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk

@Rocco send me a message, I might have a spare box of Belmont I can give you, will just need to see how much I have

no legitimate question is too dumb round here!

The plot thickens.

Adjusted scope mount and rezeroed with the Sako. Scored 0.75MOA group at 100yds. No chance to do 200yds but will report back.

Also tried the MEN85 fmj and had 1.25MOA group, and Hornady superperformance and shot 1.75MOA. Sako group was third.

TBH Belmont has been some of the most constant ammo ive been able to get my hands on shooting well above its purchase price, Might just be it doesnt like the Sako loads just because its expensive doesn't mean it will shoot great.

Could this be a bullet stability issue with this ammo? Seem odd that it shoots ok out to 300 but turns to shit by 400???

oh well you have learnt a couple of expensive lessons...... what used to be magnum imports..now???hut valley ...??? were always good to deal with,sure you have plenty of "better options" to spend your money with in future.
your old belmont load wont be hard to duplicate for any half competent reloader..... heck a lee whackamole set should be able to do it.... reverse engineer it will give you some idea where to start...at a GUESS... they will be using a cup n core interloct hornady and win 748 powder or the equivilent belmont was selling and it will be say 3/4 of way up ladder,eg grain or two below maximum...that is WHERE I WOULD START...and probably finish too truth be known.

Be about right - although to be safe I'd probably start at the start loads and just double check the load and components aren't going to do anything weird...

If you were down my way,id shout you a few rds of Hornady Superformance 150gr ssts,after a check n clean of yr rifle.My 308 only has a cheap scope on it,but it can shoot moa at 400yds everyday.

Hi Rocco

Im working in Newtown Wed-Thu if you get out that way, I can give you a couple of boxes to try, have one of milsurp and another one Geko from memory
Could be worth a try

PM me

The problem is subject to a steadily increasing error factor that increases exponentially. Bullet stability, velocity, wind, mirage, temperature variation, barrel harmonics, personal ability, etc. are all variable factors. Your first clue is that your rifle is shooting sub-MOA at 100 but only MOA at 200 which shows a creeping error factor at fairly short range. The easy way to imagine the compounding error potential is to imagine the error factor to be like a trumpet mouth; as the range increase the error factor increases at a greater rate. I believe your main problem is velocity loss from the short barrel (effectively 1-200 metres over a normal length barrel). Using match components in a specialised target rifle, the maximum consistent accuracy range from the .308 is in the 800 to 1000 metre area. In your case you are using a hunting bullet (designed for acceptable hunting performance at normal velocities at normal hunting ranges) at reduced velocity from a short-barreled rifle. Limit yourself to a realistic maximum hunting range of about 350 metres and it will be fine.

Along the lines of what gundoc has suggested but I doubt it is your issue.
He has a Remington 700 300 win mag that he has been mucking around a bit doing long-range shooting. older rifle, not one of the more recent shit jobs
at longer ranges, I think past 400, it had a tendency to start throwing to one side. Not a lot but at it got further it corresponded to the shots on target as well
He had already had a major shitfight with it using a lot of powder and primers etc until he found out it had a slow 1-14 twist and needed the appropriate projectile. Should've been a 1-10 to make use of the magnum case for bigger projectiles. but back on task
Between Himself and another good friend where he worked (owns a machine shop) they worked out the back mount was on the piss. I think both rear screw holes for the base were off maybe 1/4 mm to one side. That's 10 thou to the proper people.
He ummed and ahhed about it but got a carbide cutter of the appropriate size for about 60 bucks, set it all up on the mill (triple checking and gently recut the holes and it only needed tapping to the next size up.
he was still dubious about it working and it being the issue in the first place.
Well, it was. On a sporting rifle barely used out to 400 it wouldn't have been noticeable but once you got out past that it reared its head.
must've been working a little bit like canting a scope. It was never in line with the bore.

Yep, that's really common across a lot of the brands. Doesn't take much to make an issue where there shouldn't be and on a round receiver it literally does tip the scope to one side. Rem clones often go up to 8x36tpi screws from what is the standard (I think 6x40tpi?).

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Originally Posted by csmiffy

Along the lines of what gundoc has suggested but I doubt it is your issue.
He has a Remington 700 300 win mag that he has been mucking around a bit doing long-range shooting. older rifle, not one of the more recent shit jobs
at longer ranges, I think past 400, it had a tendency to start throwing to one side. Not a lot but at it got further it corresponded to the shots on target as well
He had already had a major shitfight with it using a lot of powder and primers etc until he found out it had a slow 1-14 twist and needed the appropriate projectile. Should've been a 1-10 to make use of the magnum case for bigger projectiles. but back on task
Between Himself and another good friend where he worked (owns a machine shop) they worked out the back mount was on the piss. I think both rear screw holes for the base were off maybe 1/4 mm to one side. That's 10 thou to the proper people.
He ummed and ahhed about it but got a carbide cutter of the appropriate size for about 60 bucks, set it all up on the mill (triple checking and gently recut the holes and it only needed tapping to the next size up.
he was still dubious about it working and it being the issue in the first place.
Well, it was. On a sporting rifle barely used out to 400 it wouldn't have been noticeable but once you got out past that it reared its head.
must've been working a little bit like canting a scope. It was never in line with the bore.

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I must add It should've read my friend, not gundoc in case anyone thought that's what i meant

What I think your issue could be is parallax error. Are you making sure you are 'dialing out' properly at the ranges you are having trouble with?

(For newer shooters)
Before shooting any new range you need to re-settle the crosshairs by unfocussing back and forth, in small increments. Bobbing your head till you confirm that your crosshair isn't straying off the target 1mm.

If you don't do this you're at the mercy of the variation in your hold. It will blow out your groups. The error is almost imperceptible because your scope eye auto adjusts. But the crosshair wobbling when you bob your head a little tells you your focus is OFF.