Who here shoot it? I have completely lost touch whos at the top of the heap and what are the numbers like?
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Who here shoot it? I have completely lost touch whos at the top of the heap and what are the numbers like?
The numbers are small compared to F-TR simply because of the costs involved. Chewing through a more than one barrel a season is out of the budget for many, and the initial outlay/component costs are more than F-TR.
At a lot of the regional champ shoots the number of F Class shooters now equals the the traditional Target Rifle class shooters. So it does continue to increase in popularity, whilst TR continues to decline. Like 6x47 FTR shooters generally outnumber FO shooters maybe around 2:1 or greater. FO has become a drag race where obviously you still need the shooting skills but money talks.
The Taranaki range is still closed, closest range would probably be Otorahanga or Whatawhata in Hamilton going north or Cheltenham going south.
There seems to be quite a swing to more moderate chambering in FO at the moment, several 260s, 6.5x47, straight 284 etc.
FTR is definitely is where it is at for competition, next season we should have a really strong group, there are several TR shooters changing over, so it should be good.
Check Welcome to the NRA NZ | National Rifle Association of New Zealand for club contacts, calendar etc. Pretty dead till new season starts in Sept. Results are there as well if you want to see who-is-who.
Yup, the Okato range has been closed for a bit and the Hawera range has been given its notice to shut too.. There goes the all the clubs in Taranaki :(
Sorry to hear that - what is the issue causing Hawera's closure? Long while since I shot there but always enjoyed the vista - boats cruising past in the distance :PQuote:
Originally Posted by lost
Exactly that reason.. Something along the lines of there were contracted divers in the water at the time, but outside of the red zone. Who then alerted the police, and so forth..Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
Awesome range that one, tricky winds off the coast too!
That is nothing new though, wonder what the difference was with this one. Be freaking annoying to loose that range as well.
Fingers crossed another endeavour comes to fruition then - won't help the NRA guys so much though.
I'm very new to F-TR. Loving the competition. As well as that though, I feel that getting out there and joining a club is going a small way to keeping it alive.
@Hades where are you shooting? Cheltenham or Paki Paki?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hades
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Thanks for that. The shift to FTR surprises me a little but the fact you guys are equal numbers with TR does not. For the claimed oldest sport in NZ to be slowly drying up is a little sad to hear. Statistically it will not recover. The future of the NRA is in FTR or F-Class. I assume the NRA has adequately recognized this? I enjoyed my time with the Petone Club very much and wish the club well.
As for target shooting in Taranaki the only stuff I have sniffed out is the south Taranaki deer stalkers. I'm not really interested in competition any more but may look into what they are doing at some stage. It sounds a little informal and that might be a bit of fun. I still have a full blown F-Class rifle but now chambered in 7mm WSM which is now in my A5 and I use it hunting. Frankly far better bang for buck. It’s absolutely lethal.
hahahahaha, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugger That
mate, you have no idea how difficult it is to get f-class to make inroads into the "tr" mentality. the entire NRA council is still completely TR focussed, most of the clubs are TR heavy when it comes to committee members. there are lots of elderly TR shooters still involved in managing clubs, even though they are not actively shooting. at a national level, teams and development is still very heavily focused on palma and tr...
we have only just started getting some movement at the WRA level to get f-class recognition for stuff like postal shoots, champion of champion etc. still massive discrepancies when it comes to queens badges handed out at nationals. some of the regional comps have a "final" for top 5 TR shooters, nothing for F, the list goes on (and on and on)
I built a f-class leaderboard for the NRA village after having to go begging for funds from other shooters, the NRA powers did not even want to send out an email.
bit of a touchy subject.... :pissed off:
on a positive side we had an aus F team here for nationals this year, that has ramped up the competition level by several notches.
FTR is going through a bit of a transformation at the moment. We went to 1/2 moa super-V scoring this year. Moving away from a one-design type class (using 155 palma projectiles), different styles of bipods are maturing etc. But it is a much easier (equipment wise) and cheaper option for entry into F-class. Berger 185 projectiles are pretty common at the top level, and some of the overseas guys are going really heavy with 215s and 230s, but that requires a LOT more precise gun control. FTR is also a very good way to increase your wind skills, especially if you want to score well using 155s.
@zimmer CheltyQuote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
Not that i need another disipline of shooting ebf but how much is someone looking at to get set up? I have what im fairly sure was built as a target rifle many many years ago in a long range wildcat that im keen to stretch the legs out on
depends on the depth of your pockets :D
probably looking at $2k cheapest option to $10K easy for high-end.
single shot, rigid action : cheap - Omark, expensive - Barnard etc
decent barrel : $ 600-1000
scope : anything from $ 1000 to $ 5000
bipod : davies from aus is good, around $ 300, sinclair is another option, SEB joy-pod is the bees knees, but $ 600+
rear bag : $ 100 - 200
lots of ways to skin a cat, bring your rifle and have a go in sept when the season starts, then take it from there :D
then you need to factor in reloading equipment, and components for around 1500 rounds for a full season...
Actually I have a very good idea I was the F-Class delegate to the NRA for a few years. I shelled out several hundred dollars to sponsor the Masefield trophy (I think?, can’t remember which Steve Morris sponsored one and I the other) I spent many long hours sitting in the cold NRA executive meetings for my 2 min segment only to have it brushed under the carpet. All in all I became disillusioned with the whole thing and called it quits after spending 3 months working with a new .284 then switched back to 6.5 and chewed the throat in 200 rounds with hot RL17 loads. By the end of the Masefield my throat was toast. I pulled out of the Ballenger and went to the south Island hunting. While there I figured I had enjoyed a pretty good innings but didn't have the energy to stay at the pointy end anymore and never went back. Resigned as Delegate and vice chair to Petone.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Truth be known I should have never sold my first gun to DAF that thing just worked and my new gun never did in the McMillian stock, it was just to light.
Shooting the 155 by comparison to the 140 VLD was significant. The 155 was very much like sending my 6 year old to the fridge to get another beer. It seems without purpose and without direction but given time and patience it would complete the journey but the beer was never placed where you expected it to be. 140 VLD @ 3160fps by comparison was a slippery bastard and very predictable. But then given it inherited and additional few grains of weight from the throat of my barrel I guess that was inevitable.
You guys enjoy the sport while it lasts. If the NRA do not seize the opportunity to get behind F-Class shooting and foster the numbers in the coming years the numbers will lose its critical mass and the range will go. As the likes of these forums show there is very little interest in Target shooting in general and until it is understood why guys don't want to compete in shooting events it is near impossible to remove the barriers. F-TR is the NRA best chance to revitalize its self. Personally I would have been keen to restrict F-TR to 155's but I accept there was a good argument to open it up as well.
Good to see Graeme Cook having some luck in the sport.
@Bugger That I remember your reign and dominance and then sudden departure. Thanks for explaining the background.
@ebf The NRA attitudes to F Class starts right at the top of the organisation unfortunately. Rather than see F Class shooters as the potential to boost the organisation........
Yup, and the funny/ sad thing is that whenever it is raised, they turn around and say "well, you need to sort yourselves out, f class is like herding cats"...
The fundamental problem is not having any councillors or exec members that are f-class shooters. Having a non voting delegate is a waste, as had been demonstrated quite clearly.
Unfortunately I think the reality is that NRA style target shooting in NZ is in its death throes. The numbers simply have gone beyond where it is sustainable. Younger guys today want to do service rifle or IPSC pistol, fullbore has no "cool" factor. There is a huge pool of potential shooters amongst the deerstalkers, but because of NRA attitudes, those guys are much more likely to find a home in a prescision rifle series or something like what Gillie is running.
Practical field shooting is far more interesting to me than F-class, I was going to shoot the Gunslinger in February before it was cancelled, then of course it was re-scheduled during a work trip. Will make it up for one of Gillie's shoots one day as soon as I can hopefully. I'd shoot F-class just for the hell of it with my hunting rifle (fuck the game guns) if it was remotely accessible on the West Coast but it isn't, and it also wasn't in Dunedin
It’s actually much like this forum environment.:D Whenever I went to the shooters for their opinion to take back to the NRA we would all end up talking in circles? It was hellishly frustrating. I remember well at the end of the F-Class Nationals drawing equal with ??? (I was going to say Kevin but that was a Ballenger) There was no official ruling as to how to work out the winner. As the delegate at the time I wanted to put in place an agreement as how we would sort it out. All I got was 20 odd guys looking at their feet. In the end Graeme made the call on count back. Anyway a few weeks later I get rumors of bitching. As far as I was concerned they had there opportunity and missed it. Back then a number of shooters wanted their own target and I was for that as well. I wanted to avoid any more draws. But there was no way in hell we were going to get that. The move to the targets you have now I assume is for the better?Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Gimp as I see it the real advantage of a practical match is that there is no real fixed infrastructure. NRA shooting will most likely disappear with time. If regions cannot acquire the land or the infrastructure to shoot they fail as has happened here in Taranaki. As the regions dry up this has a flow on effect in Trentham. I see the club fees are $265.00?? Or some rather large number like that. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out what is happening there. That fee will drive even more away and so on.
Your practical matches are a better model and more sustainable. The only down side I see is that I assume a great deal of the setup cost and energy to keep it going most likely sits with just 1 or maybe a very small number of guys. With that in mind the matches are dependent on their interest in keeping it going. Anybody who shoots at these matches would be wise to pass on their appreciation to those individuals and where possible make every effort to help.
yup, very good move imho, we (informally) shot 1/2 moa super-V at last year's hamilton F event, and it showed a massive difference between those that had some overseas competition experience and the rest. most guys have adapted pretty quickly, and it is funny watching the TR guys trying harder to up their X count as well :D at least now we are shooting at the same size targets as the rest of the world, so better for top-level, but harder for the weekend warrior, so bit of a double-edged sword.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugger That
we have also started making some F inroads into 300m. FTR was allowed last year, and at the start of May this year we had the first 2 FO guys competing. competitor numbers were pretty much evenly split between F (FO & FTR), ISSF and Open.
And rising, already quite a bit more than IPSC for example once you add match fees etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugger That
As EBF says the entire NRA is old (and some I think are a bit senile) and TR only fanatics. In fact some even said that they didnt want ppl who thought they were snipers anywhere near "their range" (hence why I wonder about the sanity of some of them). However I spent 2 years pointing out that FTR ppl was on the increase, and that we needed members or we are poked, I think I got a wee bit of traction on one or two ppl. As an example I think NRA has about 250 members nationwide, you cant run a functional organisation on that number.
If you want a competitive FTR its a specialist gun, so $1700 for a single shot Barnard P action, about $1k for a Kreiger 30inch SS match barrel, about $1k for a good enough stock and bipod and $1500 for a good enough scope so you are up around $5k. F-open, similar setup except instead of a barrel per 4 years 1 or more per year...ie 4000 rounds v 750.
I tend to agree that statistically the NRA is dead, especially as I think they dont seem to want recover, just keep the game going until they are all too old. Hence why I have been taking an interest in 223 and the WSRA. There is supposed to be a 600yd rnage coming soon, if its a goer I might just drop Trentham its going to get ugly so I want to be well away if so.
What I do is shoot 303brit for short ranges (<=600yds) and I will go back to FTR for >=800 next season, my eyesight is now just not up to TR.
$265 last year, I dont know what its going to be this year, we'll find out in July. On top of that though in effect its $50 for each weekend, many ppl are saying no to that.
In the beginning of FTR I was disappointed that they (F-class members) Allowed the wording of the founding document effectively allow a full blown F-Class rifle chambered in 308. From its concept it was only intended for and TR rifle fitted with a scope and front rest. I was a bit pissed off about it so decided to chamber my F-Class rifle in 308 and shoot F-TR with the intention of demonstrating how such a setup could dominate the class. In reality I never got my head around the almost double windage factor and failed miserably.:D To this day 308's do my head in.Quote:
Originally Posted by steven
Set up cost can vary.Quote:
Originally Posted by jakesae101
I bought a Savage Model 12 .223 1:7 twist for my son to begin with in FTR, off the shelf with 2nd hand scope and bipod + reloading gear about $3200 to begin to compete. A great learning rifle for him (and now me) to learn with.
We're now assembling another rifle around a Barnard action in 308.
Bugger That, you seem to use the term "F Class" to refer to FO. That might have been the case in the past, as some in the NRA still seem to do this. With the move to 6.1 scoring, we have hopefully broken the ubmilical to TR and positioned more as a "real" F class sub-division. Most of the resistance to FTR going 6.10 came from TR shooters :D
Those of us shooting currently see F-Class as having two equal divisions, FTR and FO.
The 308s we are shooting are a world apart from 1:14 144grainers. The Lapua Scenar 155 and HBC Dyer Mk2 are both pretty good, and for that extra 5-10%, the Berger 185 Hybrid or Juggernaut is the current flavour of the month.
In FO most top guys seem to be using 7 WSM, either 7mm or 300WSM necked down, driving 180 Bergers.
It would have been good to keep FTR at 155, to make it a more even playing field (and limit costs), but that horse has bolted, and like I said, the yanks are going even heavier than 185... Been hearing things about heavier pills in extra-extra long barrels...
I know it’s near impossible but imagine for a second if you could operate independently of the NRA. If I was still involved I would push the NRA for support to shoot independently of TR at least one competition per year at Trent ham. This would give you a bit of a foot holding to act on in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
That why I chambered in 7mm WSM. 5 years ago I had my rifle setup in both my FO stock and the A5 so I could use it for both FO and hunting. I have 2 new Krieger barrels for it and a True flight. The WSM is a natural shooter with extremely low ES and consistent good groups I can see why guys have adopted it.
With how things have panned out I think F-TR has actually gone in the right direction. I also think it requires more skill to be successful. FO is a bit of a drag race but it comes with the challenge of keeping it going all day when shooting 4 matches. Without having done anything like that with my WSM I expect that would be a challenge although I sure wouldn’t shoot the powder I currently am for FO.
Interesting developments Thanks.
@ebf It is even worse in my club where some of the older members still call our class of shooting "Free Rifle". No amount of correcting by me will change them including trying to explain that Free Rifle is a 3 pos event nothing at all like F Class. grrr that is what we are up against. A few ago when I was more active and took out our clubs FO champs I was subsequently presented with a cup at our annual presentation. The cup had a label with it - Free Rifle.
Re the NRA fees - as membership declines the fixed costs to run the organisation will be shared across fewer members so will continue to escalate in value.
I wish they had kept the 155gr, they can still do by regualting that but usually the ones with the most money make the loudest noises, and have I think ruined every sport Ive had a go at for 40 odd years.
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I was using Bergers to cull goats but we are getting through a huge number of them. I have just gone back to Hornady. I'd hate to be shooting Bergers at targets at $1.00+ per pill that would make me cringe.Quote:
Originally Posted by steven
@steven, if NZ decides to go 155, it will be a move backwards. 185s give you a good 10% margin in heavy wind, and at international level it would be crazy to use something that is not optimal. To be effective, an entire team has to shoot the same weight projectile, otherwise you expect the wind coaches to perform miracles..
The only way it will be feasible is if ICFRA does it worldwide, and I can't see that happening. But it is a numbers thing, the Yanks shoot in high-value winds and want the heavier projectiles, and they have the numbers to support change. The total number of FO and FTR shooters turning up for NZ Nationals is probably a small weekend club in the states... Will be interesting to see how it pans out at the next worlds in Canada. The UK team has already chosen 155gr according to their website...
@zimmer, yep and hence why I am seriously considering going in a different direction. On top of that there is a drive for NRA NZ to host the Palma in 2019, just how that is paid for is a "mystery". Since the NRA is supported by clubs which in turn means membership fees, I am rather worried that some big bills might finish "us" off.
Hence why with 223 service rifle 13.5cents is so appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugger That
--edit--
if we get some serious Ar15 / 223 long range FTR type shooting in Wellington its bye bye 308w for me I think...
Would be really keen to get into f open shooting, sadly I haven't got the 5000$ to set up a rig, and all the reloading gear and then travel to shoots during the summer months. In terms of shooting my interests lie mainly aside from hunting are in advanced reloading ,wind reading and shooting/positional techniques like the field shoots I've been to. I'd be keen to do the odd 3 and 6 at trentham for a bit of wind reading practise but in some ways I'd rather spend my hard earned dollars and get out hunting. Never really been fussed shooting target rifle class, tried small bore and shooting with a sling and jacket wasn't me, I'm not keen on the 308 either really in my opinion it's just pissing into the wind if it wasn't a nato round it wouldn't be near as popular.
From the sidelines as a few others might of said yes there may be a demise of target shooting in nz however I see little advertising or promotion to get into the sport probably to do with the country's interior politics in the nra along with a local joker here who is mad set on getting rid of trentham as a shooting facility. Obviously I'm not just going to show up to a club shoot and walk up to some random and ask if I can have a go sort of thing if clubs want shooters then maybe it's time they get off their arse and show what the great sport it is . for example the national champs at trentham this year I didn't see that many spectators and I was thinking to myself how many of these crack shot shooters have actually tipped over a deer.
But hey just my opinion as everyone does, you gotta accept people move on and maybe the sport is not meant to be. Most young guys or people getting into hunting would be more likely to get into long range or God forbid 3 gun, pistol and the like rather than shooting paper
As an outsider looking in it's seems to be that accessibility is the problem.
When I first bought my 308 I was initially keen to shoot targets out to longer distances. However everything I hear puts me off with all the rules and requirements and the endless politics that I hear being complained about whenever someone talks about it. I wouldn't even know how to start out to be honest.
Compared to shotgunning where you can just turn up at a club night and have a go and get someone helping and coaching you.
Last time I was at the range I was giving the gun a good clean before leaving and two guys were just shaking their heads and talking about the politics and how they were sick of it. Then one of them mentioned may as well just give it away and do Tuesday nights and Sundays with the shotgun. "No bullshit, everyone has a laugh, nobody gives a fuck about what gun you're shooting, etc."
Bruce Rifle Club in Dunedin is extremely accessible and good these days. They just don't shoot much long range.
Two good examples of the difficulties facing the NRA. I guarantee you that if you rock up to Trentham with your hunting gun and 24 rounds of ammo (actually you may need more to get onto the target if longrange) the guys will welcome you onto the range, help you with getting onto the target and you will leave with a marked score. Because that’s exactly how I got involved I took my 308 along with its Tasco scope and approached the first person I saw they directed me to the Petone president he was helpful and arranged some one to help me and the range officer gave me a bit of a briefing. No prior contact with any of them at all. I shot 800y I didn’t care about my score I was amazed I hit the very big black bit in the middle. The only requirement for a better rig is that hunting guns despite all the shit you read here are not competitive. We can all fluke a .3moa 3 shot group occasionally. That said a heavy barrel varmint gun may do alright but the guys currently shooting would put anyone right on the thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by scoped
If you want to gain experience with your hunting gun you can shoot it every weekend at Trentham and no one will care about your score but you. By all means join a club and have ago. You will learn heaps and meet some good people.
As for the deer remark I guess shooting animals is a relevant to them as shooting targets to most of the guys here. Each to there own.
Agreeing on this, the firearm culture in Nz is too hunting-centric, even down to the licensing process - questions about "what would you do if you were hunting on private land?" etc. There are other legitimate uses of firearms than hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugger That
@scoped, nothing stopping you from bringing your hunting rifle and having a go. You can also use one of the club rifles and see if that makes a difference. You might learn a thing or three...
very different skillsets between f-class and gong shooting/hunting. The one is about absolute consistency and shooting 10/15/20 shot groups to high degree of accuracy, trying to make wind the only variable. The other is massively variable in terms of position, terrain, angle etc. some of the skills are transferable, but I think that without trying both, most guys completely underestimate the huge differences.
some f-class guys hunt, some don't. Some are into benchrest, some aren't. Like most sports these days, once you get to the sharp end, it is a very specific and specialised thing.