Forum shooting challenge: The under 500 500

Put me down for this, it may be open sights unless I figure how to fit a scope to the swede without drilling, tapping or changing the bolt.
Ive hit a figure 11 at 500 metres with it so its a contender.

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Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway

This is a challenge to all, and I expect it might open a few peoples eyes about where the value lies in a rifle. (Or it might not, we will see...)

My humble Winchester 70 30-06 was bought for $400 and it might be a contender. But I think a lot of fun would be to dig up something as cheap as you can and make it work. I can see some Swedish Mausers, Mosin Nagants and old .303's showing up. I have a feeling someone it going to surprise us with what SKS can do if you treat it right...

I am in.

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Hey, your 'humble' mod 70 30-06 was enough for Messrs Eric England and Carlos Hathcock ;)

Exactly. I already know it shoots better than the Sako's or the Tikka I used to own. So I've already learned the lesson implicit in this challenge the hard way.

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Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

For 500m. 22LR will have to be shot like a mortar

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I pissed myself at the thought of this

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Originally Posted by Dundee

No bugger beleives my range finder or .22 but I'll give it a crack and have witness!

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Its been done before

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Originally Posted by berg243

is there a limit on practice thinking more along the lines of my old mans 8mm mauser would never sell it and I know he wouldn't have paid much for it as it was bought in the days of pounds and pence even though he was offered 5k for it as a collectors item as it has some decoration and stuff inset into stock it has been sporterised. his 303 would sell it if I can get a safety and a couple other things also neither is scoped so is that any extra points or do we get a bigger target.

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@garyp

There should never be any limit on practice. There are several points to this. One, the true test of any Kiwi is not how he functions with the best gear, but with the worst. Secondly, all these old rifles need cleaned up, polished and put into the hands of people who don't have licenses yet, but should. Excess shiny shit and corporate style marketing by chain stores is stopping people from going hunting. Thirdly it is just good fun.

My rifle range is going to have a dedicated riflecross course. Anyone who wants to shoot this competition is welcome:cool:

Someone should check this one out, seems pretty much made for this challenge, and an ideal first rifle for someone getting into it - Ruger 77 in 308 with a Leupold M8 all for $550, which you might be able to sweet talk down to $500. I would be all over it like a fat kid on cake if I had any spare coin around. https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Lis...?id=1975844918

Called Carlsenhighway yesterday at the equivalent of 4am his time. He reminded me this was actually his idea, way back in about 2010. Good things take time.



Sent from my CPH1701 using Tapatalk

Ok I had a little practice with the swede yesterday, 5 shots at 100, gave a 4 inch group above the 2 inch circle which is impossible to see with open sights anyhow.
I have a 12 in gong so used that for the other ranges.
200, hit 300, hit 400 miss, miss, hit. No more ammo.
Even painted bright red that gong was hard to see at 400 and is way smaller than the front post, at 500 it will be damn near invisible. Some optics are gonna be needed. It was fun though.
I might try it with something more pricey and scoped next time.

Somebody want to sell me a scope for under $100? Rifle cost me $385 6 months ago, so with the right scope will be under the $500. BUT, I wont be selling the rifle, like it too much.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

You wrote all that when 1/4moa is completely irrelevant? Note the difference below.

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I do not quite understand your reply. My point is that there is only quite limited amount work you can do to improve a rifle. Much of what could have been negatively affecting a rifle's accuracy cannot be fixed by a user (or even a gun smith). It has nothing to do with 1/4 MOA. You can easily have a 4 MOA gun which, after bedding, re-crowning and load development, still does 3 MOA.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Again, you seem to have drifted off topic. No one says you can't shoot your own 1MOA rifle. Just not in this contest. It appears you are simply not a contender. Rocky was a contender.

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My point was simply that doing a lot of load development and reloading for an inaccurate 500 dollar rifle makes little sense.

The point of this challenge is essentially to prove that a cheap rifle can still shoot well, is it not? My point is that if it cost 10 hours of time and $200 of ammo to develop the right load just to make the old 500 dollar rifle to shoot 1 MOA, and from there to maintain 1 MOA you will always have to reload, then it becomes an expensive rifle (totally fine if the goal was to make this particular old rifle shoot for sentimental or nostalgia values). A brand new 1300 rifle that shoots factory ammo 1 MOA arguably makes better economic sense.

If a person did not already start with an accurate rifle that only cost 500 from some distant past, there are only three ways to succeed this challenge:

1. bargain ruthlessly and shamelessly, pay 500 dollars for a rifle with known accuracy that simply is worth more.

2. draw of luck, keep buying 500 dollar rifles until you hit one that is actually quite accurate and sold by an unsuspecting owner - which can happen with estate sales.

3. buy an average 500 dollar rifle and then spend a lot of time rework every part of the rifle: rework the trigger, true the action, lap the barrel, adjust head space (on top of re-crowning, bedding, load developments). Basically the sort of work usually only gunsmith can do properly. In my view unless luck is on your side even with all that work done you may not get a 1 MOA gun.

I have read a lot of accurazing stories and commentary in RimfireCentral about people's journey in accurasing their rifles. The general consensus is pretty much that the time and money spent improving a low end rifle is just not worth it. The only accurazing step that will give you some guaranteed gain (for a low end rifle) is barrel upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Husky1600

Somebody want to sell me a scope for under $100? Rifle cost me $385 6 months ago, so with the right scope will be under the $500. BUT, I wont be selling the rifle, like it too much.

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Depending on what you want, a lot of people would be willing to just give you a 4x if that is all you need. A OK 3-9x40, such as low-mid end Hawke or Nikko Stirlling can be had for 100 if you look around. They are usually dependable enough with nothing else going for them. Just stay away from Ranger.

@Ultimitsu why did you even post that? All the stuff you keep saying about what people and rifles will do, you are making up. This is not Rimfire central.

These rifles areare not junk. They are old, but they were mostly hand made by craftsman. More work went into the bolt than your average rimfire.

I'm going to be gentle here if I can. Most of what you learned on Rimfire central was a form of cosplay. That stuff is all make believe. Like fairies and unicorns. It's real, but it exists only in the hearts and minds of Rimfire central members. It is really not appropriate to mention it outside Rimfire central.

You get a score of 5 then.

Simple rule. To be champ you must officially enter and your rifle is for sale to others who have officially entered. Rifle trading will be in person at the end of official events.

If you just want to shoot your cheapest rifle and post a score do that.

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Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

3. buy an average 500 dollar rifle and then spend a lot of time rework every part of the rifle: rework the trigger, true the action, lap the barrel, adjust head space (on top of re-crowning, bedding, load developments). Basically the sort of work usually only gunsmith can do properly. In my view unless luck is on your side even with all that work done you may not get a 1 MOA gun.

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I've done this with a couple $450 rifles. One currently shoots consistent 13mm three shot groups at 100m, same pattern/position. Unfortunately it is only a 223 and non dialling scope.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Ok I had a little practice with the swede yesterday, 5 shots at 100, gave a 4 inch group above the 2 inch circle which is impossible to see with open sights anyhow.
I have a 12 in gong so used that for the other ranges.
200, hit 300, hit 400 miss, miss, hit. No more ammo.
Even painted bright red that gong was hard to see at 400 and is way smaller than the front post, at 500 it will be damn near invisible. Some optics are gonna be needed. It was fun though.
I might try it with something more pricey and scoped next time.

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This should explain the point of this exercise. A 4" group at 100m with open sights, unable to see the 400m target, but dead deer all the way to 300m
@Ultimitsu stop fixating on 1/4 or MOA in general. You realize a 2MOA rifle will score 19 in this competition while a 1/4MOA rifle only gets 22? ;)

All this challenge requires is to have a go within the rules.

If you are a consistent shooter and have a good knowlege of ballistics (and understand basic statistics) a good score is possible with a rifle of ordinary hunting accuracy - I like about 40mm at 100M) . My F class rifle will group at 10mm at 100M but a first shot hit at a 10" target at 400 is not much less likey than if I was using a hunting rifle. Try doing a bit of stats learning of you don't understand that.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

This should explain the point of this exercise. A 4" group at 100m with open sights, unable to see the 400m target, but dead deer all the way to 300m
@Ultimitsu stop fixating on 1/4 or MOA in general. You realize a 2MOA rifle will score 19 in this competition while a 1/4MOA rifle only gets 22? ;)

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Sorry maths is not my strong point :) - I re-read the scoring system and is the:
"5 shot 100m group 1 point for every 1/4" under 2"
Is that 1 point awarded for each shot under 2 inches or the whole 5 shot group ? Just wondered since you said a 2 MOA gun scores 19 and I make it 15 ?

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Originally Posted by Pete_D

Sorry maths is not my strong point :) - I re-read the scoring system and is the:
"5 shot 100m group 1 point for every 1/4" under 2"
Is that 1 point awarded for each shot under 2 inches or the whole 5 shot group ? Just wondered since you said a 2 MOA gun scores 19 and I make it 15 ?

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And 2moa at 100m is 2.29"/58.2mm.

1moa @ 100y = 1.047"

1y = 0.9411m

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Originally Posted by Pete_D

Sorry maths is not my strong point :) - I re-read the scoring system and is the:
"5 shot 100m group 1 point for every 1/4" under 2"
Is that 1 point awarded for each shot under 2 inches or the whole 5 shot group ? Just wondered since you said a 2 MOA gun scores 19 and I make it 15 ?

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It is 15. This is what happens when I do math in my head while assembling irrigation parts at the same time:D I don't add good.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

It is 15. This is what happens when I do math in my head while assembling irrigation parts at the same time.

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You should worry if I'm better than Maths than you ! it must have been the number of fingers I had available at the keyboard vs you :thumbsup:.

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Originally Posted by Pete_D

You should worry if I'm better than Maths than you ! it must have been the number of fingers I had available at the keyboard vs you :thumbsup:.

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Everything I do is in a math heavy field but I could not work at a dairy because I can't make change:D

All this challenge requires is to have a go within the rules.

If you are a consistent shooter and have a good knowlege of ballistics (and understand basic statistics) a good score is possible with a rifle of ordinary hunting accuracy - I like about 40mm at 100M) . My F class rifle will group at 10mm at 100M but a first shot hit at a 10" target at 400 is not much less likey than if I was using a hunting rifle. Try doing a bit of stats learning of you don't understand that.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

@Ultimitsu why did you even post that? All the stuff you keep saying about what people and rifles will do, you are making up. This is not Rimfire central.

These rifles areare not junk. They are old, but they were mostly hand made by craftsman. More work went into the bolt than your average rimfire.

I'm going to be gentle here if I can. Most of what you learned on Rimfire central was a form of cosplay. That stuff is all make believe. Like fairies and unicorns. It's real, but it exists only in the hearts and minds of Rimfire central members. It is really not appropriate to mention it outside Rimfire central.

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I am not sure why you would rubbish Rimfire Central. Look at the size:
* This forum - Threads: 47,083, Posts: 782,521, Members: 7,998
* Rimfire Central - Threads: 473,223, Posts: 5,000,803, Members: 154,084

Rimfire Central is generally speaking a very respected forum, well run and well moderated. I mention RC because the RC has a lot of people tinkering with rifles about the price range referred to in this thread. If you go to Snipers Hide - a long ranger shooter forum - people there tend to talk about 5k rifles and 5k scopes.

I am not sure why you think somehow centre fire rifles are "mostly hand made by craftsman" with "More work went into the bolt than your average rimfire." The average rimfire that people over at RC play with are CZ and Ruger, they both between 600 to 900 here in NZ. many people there have been long term Anschutz class users.

Check out a review for a typical low-end centre fire gun, the infamous Remington 770: https://www.huntinggearguy.com/rifle...on-770-review/

Yeah.. I think CS 453 has more work gone into its trigger than Remington has put into the whole gun.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

@Ultimitsu stop fixating on 1/4 or MOA in general. You realize a 2MOA rifle will score 19 in this competition while a 1/4MOA rifle only gets 22? ;)

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I am not "fixated" on 1/4 MOA, my last few posts deal with 1 MOA rifle.

Actually I am not convinced that if a rifle does 2 MOA at 100, it will reliably do 2 MOA at 500. the bullet is likely to be tumbling a bit therefore far more likely to fare worse at 500.

But even if we ignore that cynicism, sure a 2 MOA rifle may do 15, the point of participating a challenge would still be winning it. Otherwise we could say a 3 MOA rifle would still score 5. But who wants to spend 500 for a challenge to have a 3 MOA gun?

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Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

I am not sure why you would rubbish Rimfire Central. Look at the size:
* This forum - Threads: 47,083, Posts: 782,521, Members: 7,998
* Rimfire Central - Threads: 473,223, Posts: 5,000,803, Members: 154,084

Rimfire Central is generally speaking a very respected forum, well run and well moderated. I mention RC because the RC has a lot of people tinkering with rifles about the price range referred to in this thread. If you go to Snipers Hide - a long ranger shooter forum - people there tend to talk about 5k rifles and 5k scopes.

I am not sure why you think somehow centre fire rifles are "mostly hand made by craftsman" with "More work went into the bolt than your average rimfire." The average rimfire that people over at RC play with are CZ and Ruger, they both between 600 to 900 here in NZ. many people there have been long term Anschutz class users.

Check out a review for a typical low-end centre fire gun, the infamous Remington 770: https://www.huntinggearguy.com/rifle...on-770-review/

Yeah.. I think CS 453 has more work gone into its trigger than Remington has put into the whole gun.

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I think the point being made re the "mostly hand made by craftsman" comment is that most of the rifles that will be real contenders in this event will be old guns, that date back to a time where each rifle had a much higher degree of manual machining, hand fitting, and workmanship put into it. As such many of these now cheap, old rifles have a much higher degree of craftsmanship and quality then would be found on a comparably priced new-ish gun.
For say, $400, you can either buy a high quality old gun, or a low quality new gun. IMO, the high quality old gun has much more potential.

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Originally Posted by ChrisW

I think the point being made re the "mostly hand made by craftsman" comment is that most of the rifles that will be real contenders in this event will be old guns, that date back to a time where each rifle had a much higher degree of manual machining, hand fitting, and workmanship put into it. As such many of these now cheap, old rifles have a much higher degree of craftsmanship and quality then would be found on a comparably priced new-ish gun.
For say, $400, you can either buy a high quality old gun, or a low quality new gun. IMO, the high quality old gun has much more potential.

An early 1900s $400 sporterised swedish mauser is going to be head and shoulders above a more modern, low end $400 rifle that's a couple years old (eg used remington 770 or any other entry level rifle that's a few years old). The swede will have been made by craftsman, with parts individually fitted, all very high quality solid steel. Often each part is serialised to the rifle and stamped with an acceptance mark after its been (manually) fitted by said craftsman. Often multiple generations of craftsmen would continue the work of their fathers before them - they took pride in their work and it was more than a transitional job & that can be seen in the quality and finish of old rifles.
Whereas a Remington 770 or other entry level "modern" rifle (basically anything "modern" you can buy for $400) is thrown together with any manor of modern cost cutting. Flimsy plastic stocks, pressed in barrels, plastic parts everywhere possible, the cheapest labor you can find. (Iv used a $400 value for the rifle to allow some money for a cheap scope)

Personally im expecting to see an early 1900s rifle, probably a swede in 6.5x55 take the prize.

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Though there are also some pretty good budget rifles around that could do it too. The likes of the Savage Axis are known for being quite basic but nonetheless showing the typical accuracy of its more expensive stable mates. A couple of years ago you would also have been able to pick up the likes of a Howa 1500 or Marlin M?7 for around $400 if you were patient. I think this challenge may have an impact in the market in this price bracket now.

I'm still keen to have a crack at this, though with my skill level I'd never be a contender to win.

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Originally Posted by ChrisW

I think the point being made re the "mostly hand made by craftsman" comment is that most of the rifles that will be real contenders in this event will be old guns, that date back to a time where each rifle had a much higher degree of manual machining, hand fitting, and workmanship put into it. As such many of these now cheap, old rifles have a much higher degree of craftsmanship and quality then would be found on a comparably priced new-ish gun.
For say, $400, you can either buy a high quality old gun, or a low quality new gun. IMO, the high quality old gun has much more potential.

An early 1900s $400 sporterised swedish mauser is going to be head and shoulders above a more modern, low end $400 rifle that's a couple years old (eg used remington 770 or any other entry level rifle that's a few years old). The swede will have been made by craftsman, with parts individually fitted, all very high quality solid steel. Often each part is serialised to the rifle and stamped with an acceptance mark after its been (manually) fitted by said craftsman. Often multiple generations of craftsmen would continue the work of their fathers before them - they took pride in their work and it was more than a transitional job & that can be seen in the quality and finish of old rifles.
Whereas a Remington 770 or other entry level "modern" rifle (basically anything "modern" you can buy for $400) is thrown together with any manor of modern cost cutting. Flimsy plastic stocks, pressed in barrels, plastic parts everywhere possible, the cheapest labor you can find. (Iv used a $400 value for the rifle to allow some money for a cheap scope)

Personally im expecting to see an early 1900s rifle, probably a swede in 6.5x55 take the prize.

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Not that you are wrong, but I think "old rifles" is too generic a term that does not really mean anything more than rifles that are just old.

Sure, there are high end rifles from 60 years ago surviving to this day. But there are also many and many low end rifles from early to mid 20th century still floating around. A lot of the WWII rifles were sportised and many were not craftsmans' work, and were definitely mass produced to be able to hit man sized target at about 200m.

I used to check out guns at Will's fishing and hunting before he moved to west Auckland. He had a fair selection of old guns. From memory anything decent commanded a nice price tag. Will is certainly a guy that knows his old gun trading business.

High end old rifles that still have good bore and rifling, and in generally good condition are not cheap. Unless you buy from an unaware estate executor, most people know what their guns' worth. Try buy an 1970s Anschutz 54 rimfire, see how likely it is to get it under 500.

Last year a forumer bought an 1990s Anshutz 54 MSR, I think he paid about 2000.

I think if everyone who's following this actually manages to give it a go time will tell what works and what doesn't. Should be a bit of fun either way and motivation to prove each other right or wrong. I still think we need a open sights modified scoring system....Please.....:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

Actually I am not convinced that if a rifle does 2 MOA at 100, it will reliably do 2 MOA at 500. the bullet is likely to be
tumbling a bit therefore far more likely to fare worse at 500.

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Why would it be tumbling?

@Ultimitsu Anschutz are nice rifles. Regardless, you are babbling nonsense all over out shooting challenge. You need to buy a $500 centerfire and start learning.

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Originally Posted by ChrisW

I think the point being made re the "mostly hand made by craftsman" comment is that most of the rifles that will be real contenders in this event will be old guns, that date back to a time where each rifle had a much higher degree of manual machining, hand fitting, and workmanship put into it. As such many of these now cheap, old rifles have a much higher degree of craftsmanship and quality then would be found on a comparably priced new-ish gun.
For say, $400, you can either buy a high quality old gun, or a low quality new gun. IMO, the high quality old gun has much more potential.

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I must see if my nephew wants to sell his 770, its not as bad as the review rifles and is actually scarry accurate. At least with the nikko scope he has on it I could see the target properly.

Buy now this and you'll be away

https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...e83ce19b83542b

so what are you trying to achieve here . . . to get newbies into deer, target, varmint, service rifle shooting, with some of the choices put up its unclear

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Originally Posted by rossi.45

so what are you trying to achieve here . . . to get newbies into deer, target, varmint, service rifle shooting, with some of the choices put up its unclear

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Not quite sure what you mean. The angles people come up with to confuse the issue surprise me. I'm trying to get people who find this amusing to have a go for amusement. The 10" target is a dead deer if shot placement is correct, though this is something of a side issue.

Not referring to you here @rossi.45 but I can't understand why some people get so bent out of shape about competition. This is why I liked racing. In a race, someone is slightly ahead of someone else they win. You avoid having armies of bush lawyers trying to elevate their self esteem by re-interpretation of the rules.

Try hit the targets. Try get a score. Try to enjoy it.

More importantly, to me anyway, what price will people put on a 1.5-5 power Leopold V-X111? If I don't use the Loopy, this is my rifle.

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....-%24900-48744/

$450? I have one vote at $450 from the sale thread. Leaves me $50 for a scope.

Were my old 4x32 Nikon be valued at $50 I am away. More for the scope or less for the rifle and I am on open sights:D

Ultimitsu, I bought this for $500. And many others like it that would shoot nearly as well, old BSA's and old Brno's.

It will shoot anything I load for it into an inch. I cannot get it to shoot badly. I have fucking tried. I just put it into a different stock and it still shoots as well. I am at my wits end.

The 40 year old scope I put on it puts it $100 over the entry minimum, but I bet I could beat you with it at 500 metres using its open sights. I throw down my challenge.

https://i.imgur.com/BB0MCdN.jpg

Rather than risk cursing myself, I will shoot my new BSA open sights as well.

I'm of the opinion my VX-111 is worth $500 after looking around. This may allow me to use my old Nikon 4x32 without voiding my masculinity. I may just shoot it scoped and open sights.