Thread: How to manage recoil?

Originally Posted by Mauser308

I saw that, the irony haha

HaHa, Baa, baa flock off

Originally Posted by timattalon

One thing @sheep that I cannot see if anyone has mentioned is dont fight the recoil....It seems counter intuitive but I find this a lot of newer shooters (I am not saying you are new to it...but rather new to the issue at hand)

because recoil is causing pain or discomfort, the body's natural defence is to resist it; meaning trying to reduce the impact to the shoulder by trying to stop the rifle coming back at you. The trick is to actually pull thr file into your shoulder harder and 'help' pull the rifle back with recoil.

To give you a better idea of what I am trying to say....Hold your fist (or palm) about 2 inches away from a wall and shove forwards at the wall like recoil (hit the wall) The impact will be definitely felt. Now hold your hand against the wall and give it the same shove....You can apply a lot more force and it will not hurt because the contact is already made and there is no 'impact'. If you have a sturdy / co-operative person use their shoulder to push into instead of the wall.

Second point that was referred to, is that the body perceives a lot of recoil through all of its senses. A suppressor will actually not do a huge amount towards actual physical force in recoil (simple physics) BUT and it is a huge BUT....it will reduce the noise and flash and concussion from the bang and the body will think recoil has been reduced because it is not as loud / violent. I shoot with a suppressor because it is much more pleasant to shoot. It feels like it reduces recoil. And the mind is a wonderfully incredible thing.

Third, getting some pointers on your technique will be a good idea. Sometimes even the best of us start to subconsciously adjust things and it can affect how we feel recoil and accuracy.

I am not expert, but these three things have helped me with recoil issues after I started to enjoy larger calibres a bit too much....The 308 is not a heavy recoiling calibre- it is fairly mid level. One point though...the amount of energy is not what hurts with the recoil- it is the speed with which that energy is transmitted rearwards. A super light rifle will carry the same amount of energy rearwards that a heavier rifle with the same ammo will. But the speed will be higher on the lighter rifle as it accelerates into the shoulder.

And another lighter point....Most people only seem to experience recoil at the range...when shooting an animal in the field...recoil seems to vanish......The mind is focused on more important issues at the time.

Sounds true, but when out hunting who fires 20-50 full bore centrefire rounds? Each butt strike makes the next one a bit more sore, a real physical component that adrenaline can't totally cancel out.

Originally Posted by sheep

Hi, my current long range rifle is a 308 Tikka T3x superlite with a muzzle brake.

The recoil is too much for my shoulder to handle. Is a matter of time it will be dislocated. What can I do to manage the recoil?

Thanks.

Recoil is essentially the backward moving motion of your rifle, it is the reaction to the force created by the explosion which pushes out your bullet. Several things affect this:

1. amount of powder and weight of the bullet. More of each means stronger explosion and stronger forward push, which in turn means stronger backward force and more recoil. Solution - use lighter bullet and/or less powder (for example, subsonic 308). Solution 2, get a smaller caliber like (in order of descending recoil) 7mm08, 6.5 Creedmoor, 243, 223.

2. the weight of the rifle. The heavier the rifle, the less it moves when being pushed by the same amount of force. A 8kg rifle would in theory have 50% recoil of a 4kg rifle. People love super light rifles for easy carry. Your rifle is one such product that caters this market. Solution - get heavier rifle - longer and thicker barrel, wood or chassis stock, big scopes (most 5-25 are about 1kg, vs 3-9 are about 300g). etc.

3. length of the barrel. Recoil push does not happen until bullet leaves muzzle. Recoil is the backward push by the escaping gas, therefore the more that the gas expands inside the barrel the less the sudden push when it gets out, and the less recoil. Solution - get longer barrel. 28 inch should have less recoil than 24, which has less recoil than 20, which has less recoil than 16.

4. muzzle device. Muzzle brake controls the direction which the gas escapes, while suppressor controls the speed which the gas expands. They both help reduce recoil, but muzzle brake does a better job, at the cost of louder bang. Solution - get a good muzzle break.

Since you already have the gun, your cheapest solution is to use light or subsonic rounds, and add a muzzle device.

For your next rifle you should consider a thick and long barreled 223. cheap to shoot and you can enjoy shooting.

Add to this internal muzzle brakes, contained within the suppressor so you don't get the bother of the blast. @gundoc may be able to comment.

Originally Posted by sheep

Hi, my current long range rifle is a 308 Tikka T3x superlite with a muzzle brake.

The recoil is too much for my shoulder to handle. Is a matter of time it will be dislocated. What can I do to manage the recoil?

Thanks.

Cast bullets

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

3. length of the barrel. Recoil push does not happen until bullet leaves muzzle. Recoil is the backward push by the escaping gas, therefore the more that the gas expands inside the barrel the less the sudden push when it gets out, and the less recoil.

While much of this is accurate I'm not sure about point 3. Longer barrelled rifles experience less recoil simply because they are heavier. Recoil is Newton's Third Law of Motion - the 'action' of both the bullet and weight of the gases and unburnt powder moving forwards causes an equal and opposite 'reaction' moving backwards.

Although the sound quality is crap there's an interesting comparison between a suppressor and a T2 muzzle brake here. Conclusion: the muzzle brake on test makes a substantial difference to measured recoil whereas the suppressor makes very little difference. The recoil perceived with the suppressor may be less because of the reduced noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE6ivKUyTiM

Many decades ago as a schoolboy I used to shoot 3, 6 and 900 yards at Tai Tapu with a brass butt plated .303 service rifle. Being all of an eight stone string bean my shoulder definitely felt it but thankfully I never developed a flinch. Good training or good luck, I don't know?

Originally Posted by Cordite

Add to this internal muzzle brakes, contained within the suppressor so you don't get the bother of the blast. @gundoc may be able to comment.

I have always wondered if this is doable.

In your normal suppressor, holes are uniform and non-directional. Gas evenly and progressively escape the holes as it moves from end of muzzle to the end of the can. If you add a muzzle brake inside the suppressor, you push gas backwards but then the gas is immediate met with the wall of the suppressor. I would think the suppressor will be blown up fast. unless you make it so the suppressor can extends out in a "A" shape. but i have never seen such a device.

Originally Posted by on2it

While much of this is accurate I'm not sure about point 3. Longer barrelled rifles experience less recoil simply because they are heavier. Recoil is Newton's Third Law of Motion - the 'action' of both the bullet and weight of the gases and unburnt powder moving forwards causes an equal and opposite 'reaction' moving backwards.

It would seem that you are sort of correct, and I was not.

I looked this up and what others report is that the longer the barrel the faster the bullet therefore MORE recoil, but the extra weight on the gun cancels out that, resulting in more or less the same overall recoil. That is quite interesting.

What is also interesting is that people "feel" more recoil when the gun is louder. Shorter barrel definitely results in a louder bang, which is probably why i always felt shorter barrels produce more recoil. It seems that shorter barrel only produces more felt recoil, not actual recoil.

Directional brake
Will reduce recoil far more than any suppressor
If you hand load, load lighter pills
Suppressed 308s shoot like pusy cats so a braked one must be far better

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

I have always wondered if this is doable.

In your normal suppressor, holes are uniform and non-directional. Gas evenly and progressively escape the holes as it moves from end of muzzle to the end of the can. If you add a muzzle brake inside the suppressor, you push gas backwards but then the gas is immediate met with the wall of the suppressor. I would think the suppressor will be blown up fast. unless you make it so the suppressor can extends out in a "A" shape. but i have never seen such a device.

It would work on the principle that recoil starts from ignition, from when the gases and the bullet start moving forward in the barrel (i.e. not just on venting at the muzzle). The gases being internally momentarily vented backwards at their highest speed will at that moment cause a reduction in recoil. The can is designed to safely contain what it does.

Once they slow down and go in all directions inside the suppressor they are directionless overall, and thus no longer contribute or detract from recoil - until venting out the front of the suppressor at which point they again produce some recoil but at that stage they have lost much of their velocity (energy). So I agree it's a bit academic whether the internal brake does much. What IS happening with a suppressor is that gases lose velocity/energy, so that when they exit from the front of the suppressor they may have similar volume and mass but much less velocity/energy. It also means the suppressor reduces recoil by other mechanisms than merely adding inertial mass to the rifle system.

I had a discussion with, I think it was @gundoc, and he insisted the internal brake did make a difference. If we view gases traveling forwards as increasing recoil, gases traveling backwards decreasing recoil, and gases traveling in mixed directions as being net zero for recoil, that makes sense.

My experience...... I never used to have any problems with recoil/muzzle blast. Then a few years ago i had a couple of strokes. After 20-odd years of driving mostly American trucks, my hearing was pretty much fucked, so muzzle blast was a non-issue, though I did use muffs when practicing. Then, a few months ago, my brother came out here with his Ruger Model 77 mark II in .300WM With the heavy Laminate stock and a muzzle brake, to sight it in. It's a fucking canon. Anyway after firing 3 rounds I knew I had developed not just a flinch, but a veritable cringe. The sonic boom, seemed to send breakers through my injured brain. I couldn't/wouldn't take another shot that day, and the headache was a bastard. I've been shooting only my .22LR since then and I KNOW I'm going to have to work on this fucking flinch when I can steel myself to shoot my baby (.270wsm) again. The rifle (x-bolt) is something I will never get rid of, but it's gonna take some work to sort myself, And I've loaded some rounds that I need to validate. It's something I look forward to with some trepidation, instead of joy. So thanks, fellas for all the advice regarding recoil management. I'll be reading this thread often in the near future.

Recoil is directly proportional to the weight of the firearm versus the weight and velocity of the ejecta (powder and bullet). The effect of recoil can be mitigated by the fit of the firearm to the user, shooting stance, and add-on items such as recoil pad, muzzle brake, and suppressor. Assuming the fit and stance are correct then the greatest reduction effect will be from a properly designed suppressor and a good recoil pad. A proper suppressor design will incorporate an effective muzzle brake coupled with an efficient baffle design. Over-barrel suppressors use the rear chamber to reduce gas pressure exhausted from the brake while the baffle design should consist of a series of shaped chambers that use the front surface of each chamber to absorb some of the forward force of the ejecting gases, thus tending to exert a counter-recoil force. The sound suppression also makes things a lot more pleasant for the shooter and tends to reducing flinching (refer to 'stance' mentioned earlier). A good suppressor is, overall, more effective than a good muzzle brake.

Thanks everyone for advise. The discussion pretty much cover everything possible to manage recoil. Freaking awesome, the best forum to date. Cheers!

@sheep...have you read that article yet????
did it make sence/compute with you????

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

@sheep...have you read that article yet????
did it make sence/compute with you????

Yes, read it twice. Awesome article. Have to put it in practice.