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Hello all - we are framing up a summer plate series and want to offer a "hunter class" I've looked at the NZDA and NRANZ definitions but Im not really liking them.
My thoughts at this stage are to keep it very very simple. Under 6.00kgs all up and all scopes set to 18x or less.
The series will be shot off mounds at 525Y and 625Y, prone. So maybe saying no F class style bipods but ??
We run our version of HC rules on our NZDA shoots. Rifle weight and scope max power is the easiest way.
We used to use a max barrel dia but with carbon wrapped barrels it's buggered that.
We don't allow shooting jackets, 3 point slings etc basic bipod no rear rest, non trigger hand must be infont of trigger and more than 75mm above the ground.
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I like it Tentman, keeping it simple. I talk to so many shooters/hunters that dont want to turn up to a gong shoot or a PRS match because they only have a "hunting" set up. And theyre intimidated by all the fancy rigs that we are seeing at these types of matches. I for one want to encourage as many people as possible to take up some form of shooting and this is an excellent starting point for many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentman
Could there be a stock style perhaps, say monte carlo hogs back style only?
Sounds like a reasonable weight and magnification limit.
I see a lot of hunter classes with overly restrictive requirements, I understand you need to draw a line somewhere but lots of people hunt with rifles that aren't just a Remingon 700 topped with a 3-9 VX1.
A basic weight limit, magnification limit and a bipod restriction is all you should need.
A minimum muzzle energy requirement will go a long way to levelling the playing field for deer hunters anyway. I think Taupo Branch used 100gr at 3000 fps which rules out most PRS rifles. Rabbit rifles and wallaby rifles can shoot another day …
I agree, some people are using bigger, higher power scopes now for regular hunting and a limit doesnt make much sense.
You dont want people reconfiguring their regular gun to meet your rules.
Instead of a weight limit why not use Jeff Cooper’s test that the shooter has to be able to hold the gun up with horizontal outstretched arm for 60 seconds ?
A problem with shooting competition in NZ is that there are so many different formats and rules its fragmented.
Another way to test “hunter shooting skills” is to carefully set each stage so there is little advantage in a semi-target set up. Announce beforehand there will be 20% of the points for standing unsupported and 20% requiring snap shooting ( < 10 sec per shot ) and that you’ll need to carry it 5 km and you’ll see “real hunting rifles“ on the day.
18x magnification seems quite a lot, is that what the average hunter is using these days? I’m not disagreeing, just curious about what is common now. Most people I know are using less than 10x but that’s not an indication of everyone else.
I have always liked the idea of taking part in a hunter class shoot, but I don’t like being up against PRS type setups with my 7x57 and 2-7x optics, and no bipod, and wouldn’t build a rifle just for the occasional shoot.
I would like to see this style of shoot happening more often though, I think it’s good for the sport in general.
Is a poll a good idea for feedback perhaps? Just my 0.02c
What sort of shoot are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
The original post is regarding a gong shoot all off a bipod, so effectively like NRA hunter class, which you could easily do with any hunting rifle.
If you are wanting to do a field shoot (more dynamic, different positions, PRS style, etc) but with a hunting rifle, then the GPRE shoots often have a hunter class, they used to always have a hunter class but they aren’t as popular for centrefire. If you wanted to do a 22lr shoot then there are lots of events with a hunter class.
Some thoughts on hunter class shoots. Firstly; over many years culling, NRA and NZDA shoots as well as clay competitions I observed that
where competitions are concerned there are always a number of persons who eant to win and will push the rules
of firearm and equipment types to
maximum specs to get maximum
advantage over others. I saw clubs
where young or less talented persons
eventually gave up attending because
of what they perceived as an uneven
playing field. Being on one such
committee I introduced a rule making
the scoring target as large as the
military spec for an open sighted smle
which was 3moa at 100 yards. A hit
inside this was worth 1 point and
outside this was 0. This rule removed
most of the advantages of flash
equipment and as a result
attendances boomed.
That was decades ago and hunting
has changed a lot since then
However I believe a similar principle could still be applied in todays world
when talking a fair "hunter class"
shoot.
Firstly, applying a weight limit: A fully wooded SMLE plus decent scope, sling and bipod could reach 12
pounds, so there is a suggested limit
for rifle. Scope power is immaterial
and for most practical hunting ranges
a large scope is no advantage bit if a
competitpr was dumb enough to use
20x mag at normal hunting ranges he
would disadvantage him her self so I
would not restrict scope size.
Where appropriate a bipod or pack can be used as a front support aid. No
rear support allowed.
Here's the key kicker:
Our game animals, goats, fallow, reds
, pigs et al generally have a vital kill
zone of about 10 inche--9 moa.
THIS WILL BE THE 1 POINT SCORE AREA AT ALL RANGES SHOT.
KICKER#2. The rules I suggest are these:
At 100m shooting is offhand only.Thrre shots inside 10" = 3 points.
Outside the 10" target = nil point.
At 200metres only position allowed is sitting. Same 10" vital zone target.
Three shots= 3 points for three hits
At 300 metres, prone with bipod or pack for front support is
allowed..Target remains at 10", which
at 300m is 3moa. Again, 1 point per
hit. Then back to 500 metres where
prone with front support is allowed.
Same 10" target, which is now
equivalent to about 1.5 moa.
This course of fire is not difficult for a decent shootrr and hunting rifle and
plenty should accomplish the course
with a good score.
The bbq and bs at days end along
with lessons learned is all that is
needed. If a prize table is desired, it
would be by drawn lots only
The objective is to simulate required accuracy and skill for clean kills at
sensible hunting ranges and to upskill
in field conditions but not so difficult
as to deter rank and file hunters.
Anyhoo, thats my suggestion for now
Shooting of your hind legs @Woody? Are you nuts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody
Seriously the standing at 100, sitting at 200 and prone with a day pack rest at 300 was a shoot our NZDA branch shot 30 plus years back. I think it may have been with the Deer target but could have been with the round target. We did not use gongs and would not have known what they were at the time but we had a markers gallery on the range so we walked up to the next range with our rifles while the targets were marked. The bull on the deer targets was 200mm at that time (183mm for yards). At that time the Wilkinson was shot over 100 and 200 metres or yards with the reduced rings.
Regards Grandpamac.
Yep. Thats the reality Pops :)
Just btinging it up to the 21st century ay.
Out of interest I wonder how many ranges could satisfy the required range template requirements for running a shoot as Woody suggests or grandpamac remembers.
TPRA at TECT park limit the scope power to 6x power for their 300m champs shoot.
Greetings,Quote:
Originally Posted by woods223
Regrettably not many and none in Hawkes Bay to my knowledge. There will be ranges that have 100, 200 and 300 metres but the need for 500 metres could be a problem. The shoot could be split over two venues on separate days though. The markers gallery we had at Roy's Hill allowed us to run through the three ranges in 20 minutes or so you could fit a lot of details into an afternoon. The Wilkinson shoot was reduced to 100 metres or yards only and with smaller scoring rings about 20 years back likely due to the lack of ranges and interest.
Regards Grandpamac.
We run quite a few shoots along these lines shot on deer silhouette targets using a perspex scoring disc with no aim point.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
Most are 4 position shoots shit at 100m but 1 is shot at 1,2 and 300m.
We have hunter class rules 4.8kg rifle weight and max 12 power.
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The ranges shot in my suggestion are "in principle" only. However, the ptinciple of acceptable skill should still be applied. For instance; if no 500metre distance is available then a second three shots can be taken at 300m BUT using a "target ( 4 1/2" diameter) 1 and a1/2moa).That will
still be a fairly close eqivalent to a 500m shot at a 10" disc.
I don't support the kneel position S many ( me included) have stuffed knees. Standing, sitting and prone are feasibl positions for most Apply the KISS principle throuhout. The less nitpicky rules the better. A miss is a miss as are wounding shots. No 10-9-8,7,6 etc scoring because a fatal shot placement is the only criteria to win a point IMO for hunting.
While a hunter class seems pretty straight forward on the surface, there is a lot of variables that come in to play. one mans rifle is not the same as anothes and their target object is often different. The quality of the equipment is but one consideration, factory standard? sure but whos factory?
We tried to run graded hunter shoots for many years catering to different levels of enhancements. we had three groups. Standard, modified and open. And yet when hunter A bet hunter B in the same bracket people still complained.
Woody's idea of 1 point for the proper hit is sound, also the mention of a prize table with drawn prizes is a fair way to deal with it. After all we are only competing with ourselves.
Once shooter A and shooter B dont have exactly the same resources of equipment the playing field is tilted.
Or you could have 5 identical rifles that are the only allowed rifles, ammo for it is provided, Ist 2nd etc take the firearm as a prize for a small donation of course
Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
You could shoot NRA FTR class. Just because there might be flsher gear that others are using it doesn't matter. Just think of it as competing with yourself each time you shoot.
Down here the Kaituna club has a class as shown below. A few local NZDA members are considering competing in this class this season. Shot at 300, 500-900 yards using standard NRA targets. 7? electronic targets.
3. FPR.
Any calibre up to 308. The cartridge must be capable of supersonic performance to the
target. Rifle must have magazine cutout and magazine fitted. Barrel is no longer than 715
mm. Stock fore end is no wider than 66mm. Rifle maximum weight of 9.6kg. Bipod at the
front must be a foldable type. Rear bag can be used, or a monopod. Suppressor is permited.
6.5 Creedmoor is a popular choice. A number of club members shoot this discipline.
A popular class for new members with their current rifle.
Woody has a lot of good information in his reply.
The less restrictive the rules are the easier it is to have competitors turn up with equipment that is legal to use but also tilt the advantage in their favour, this has happened in EVERY form of competition, that's why the rules start getting added to and modified.
When it comes to a "Hunter" class after fitting a custom barrel and a new trigger and a new stock is the rifle still in the same class as the Tika that a number of hunters use or the Rem 788 someone turns up with?
I like some of the USA rules regarding "Factory"/"Hunter" class rifles, ie a minimum of 5000 produced in a Calander year, this rules out the semi factory and custom rifles.
Create a class for semi custom rifles, this increases the number of eligible participants, and both classes can be shot at the same time.
The NZDA Wilkinson shoot is quite a good style of shoot, no visible scoring rings and you shoot from positions that most hunters would use, yet I was told recently that this style of shooting isn't relevant to hunting now. :huh:
Think about the rules regarding rifles and equipment, then look at what rifle/equipment can be used due to the way the rules are written, then get a few others to do the same, does this align with what you want.
You might find that you end up with custom rifles competing with a rifle someone bought off the rack at the local shop.
When people think they are disadvantaged before they start they are already on the back foot and probably won't come back.
As for prizes, go and get a big prize from someone (sponsorship) that would encourage competitors to enter, and get everyone to bring a prize, it can be new or used, and put it on the prize table put everyone's name in a hat and draw the names out everyone goes home with a prize. As for the big prize put everyone's name in the hat again and draw out a name for the big prize, this way it doesn't matter if you win or not you have as much of an opportunity to win the prize.
Make up certificates or something for the 1st, 2nd & 3rd place this way there is recognition for achievement
If you run a few of these competitions throughout the year, also add in the overall winners for the year and get a keepsake trophy for them, this encourages people to come back and participate.
Here’s what I’ve learned from all the shooting comps I’ve been too.
1, Someone will complain regardless of how fair you try make the rules
2, People will always get competitive and try and buy their way to the top
3, Someone will always try and game the rules, not breaking them but not acting in the spirit of the rules
For the most part all these people will never be the best shooters and usually not be even close to winning regardless, as:
4, the best shooters will always win regardless of what gear restrictions/rules you impose
Make rules realistic, fair, and simple.
If people complain and think they are behind hard done by, check to see if they have a point or are just whinging.
Too many rules will be off putting to new shooters, if one guy turns up with a $10,000 Blaser and Zeiss scope, and another a $800 Howa with a $200 Burris, well that’s actually representative of what guys hunt with.
I wasn’t referencing any particular shoot. The nature of the shoot, targets and distances are organisers prerogative and I have no opinion as to what others want to shoot at.
I was opining on the class rules suggested by the OP. If it’s called ‘hunter class’ there’s an implication that it’s for Hunting rifles. I am only curious as to what class restrictions may or may not represent a hunting rifle these days.
In over a decade of competition shooting, I’ve never once seen all competitors completely agree with the organisers course of fire or ruleset, everyone has their own opinion, but you turn up compete regardless because it’s fun.
This may be a stupid idea but Ive often thought how would the shooter nominates his own score and then has to shoot it loosing points either side if he doesnt shoot the score?
@Tentman. With regard to your origin post I gather you are proposing only shooting prone at %25 and 600+ yards. Your concern zeems to beumitatuons of rifle supports and scope power. I think you also need to consider the actual purpose of your event. I.e.; is it to create a precise scoring competition or to test for acceptable kill accuracy for deer- pig sized game in the real world? The two are poles apart. My earlier posts assumed rge latter by use of 10 inch kill zone sized plates.with a1 point hit, zero point miss scoring system. By using this the potential advantage of those with high end equipment is to some extent nullified compared to more common hunting rifles carried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentman
There are many shoots and other competitions geared to reward those who can place a bullet in a central scoring bullseye bbut this does not actually reflect the fact that a slightly lesser setup can still successfully achieve a hit in a vital area of the game being hunted. Hence the hint to level the playing field as much as possible. In-field hunting usually does not include sophisticated supports either so skill using a basic bipod or pack and sling and no rear support is a fairer test of huting shooting skill than allowing setting up as if shooting for a high scoring ring as at many range shoots. Your decision of course and I guess your shoot format will ultimately be decided based on what you really define as "a hunter" shoot. Good on you, and i wish you every success for your event. ")
The shoots we will be running are a "precision hunter" concept loosely based on Eric Cortinas Blackjack challenge (shot at 525Y, starts with a 10" plate, goes down to 2") and Texas Plinkers MOA challenge (we'll shoot it at 625Y, with a 2MOA, 1MOA and 0.5 MOA plate sizes). The way these are scored is what makes them challenging and interesting for a wide range of skill levels.
So the series isn't aimed at the bush Hobbits, rather those who are wanting to test their skills a bit further out. A young guy with a "sorted" Tikka should be able to have a go at it, learn something and maybe earn some bragging rights. There will be three go-rounds over 3 months for folk to get the hang of it and a final with grading based on the go rounds. Two classes, Hunter/service rifle and open
So thanks for your thoughts guys, I'm still thinking to keep it simple and say 6.00kgs and 18x.
Have a clause in the rules regarding being a good sport so that if someone takes advantage of a loophole, then a disadvantage will be applied.
When defining class rules I would encourage three things. 1st, focus on the things that actually make a difference to the rifles ability to be shot. In this case I would say you could pretty much just use weight limit and forget all other rules. 6kg is pretty heavy, you could probably go to 5kg and have some wiggle room for rifles that are overweight but clearly hunting guns and not some gamer gun someone is trying to squeeze in with. Weight is with bipod attached to encourage use of lightweight hunting bipods. Don't bother trying to regulate scopes, it's a waste of time. Once you get over about 12 power, it makes next to no difference as you can't spot your own misses with hunting rifles anyway.
Stock style is zero point in regulating. People are now hunting with carbon target type stocks and have a valid argument they should be included.
Cartridge limits or recoil amount is also pointless as you need to include 223s.
Point is, keep it as simple as possible.
2nd point. Actually scrutineer the guns. There is a popular 22lr series in the north island with a hunter class and there is some piss taking going on because they do not scrutineer the rifles and grumbling from the rest of the class that are sticking to the rules because of it.
3rd, design the course of fire to encourage a certain type of rifle. For example, you could make it clear there will be some closer unsupported targets as well as longer stuff.
Maybe run an open class for the gamers so they can play too.
Greetings all,
Attachment 260399
The Wilkinson deer targets can be a pain to maintain. Our NZDA branch shot the Wilkinson from the 1970's until 1999. Over much of that time I maintained the targets and built (from memory) 3 new sets. The MkIII in the photo has two small blocks of wood fixed to the target outside the scoring area and the plastic scoring plate sits on these with the outer edges of the plate flush with the outer edges of the blocks. The deer target has the neck length reduced to fit on a 1.300m by 1.200m target face. The target face is 3mm MDF in three sections with the middle 500mm containing the deer body so it can be easily replaced. The deer is positioned on the target face using the centre hole in the scoring plate positioned on the blocks to keep everything the same. This has all taken some extra work in building the targets but reduces the ongoing maintenance considerably. Happy to provide more detail if needed.
Regards Grandpamac.
PS. The target is actually a MkII improved but the comments mostly apply.
It appears that there are 2 different discussions going on -
1. a "hunter class" to allow participants to be competitive in a competition where that equipment is likely to fare poorly against more specialised gear
and
2. hunter "competitions" that propose to simulate and test shooting skills geared towards certain "more real" hunting scenarios
You are not limited to one class. Our local NRA shoots a number of classes on the same range and in the same detail. Perhaps start with a couple of classes aimed at beginner and more advanced. Let attendance guide your progress. Currently hunters fall into 3 overlapping groups. The bush hobbits, the open country stalkers and the long rangers. There should be something for everyone.
GPM.
Thanks guys, yes these discussions often develop "tangents" both usefull and otherwise. Ranges are pretty constrained as to what they can offer, ours no exception, it isn't possible for us to do a "hunter challenge" anything remotely like Sparrowhawk's excellent course.
So we have to do something different with what we have. And it has to appeal and cater for as wider range of shooters as possible - that's our ethos at Invercargill Rifle Club. What I've programmed is aimed at guys who hunt but want to shoot past 300M AND target shooters. Wether they come with a hunting rifle or a target rifle I want them to feel like they can "belong". We'll see how it goes.
Greetings @Tentman,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentman
That should cover most needs. Appeals to me. All the best with it.
Regards Grandpamac.
