Thread: Long Range Hunting and F-Class Target Shooting.

Greetings @caberslash,
Granted it is much harder to make a living using a rifle but it is also much less expensive to own a rifle. It costs around 7 times more to purchase a T3 than I paid for my M700 ADL in the 1970's. a car is ten times the price and property well north of that. A Tasco 2.5 power scope with rings cost about $100.00 in the 70's. Our problem going forward is likely to be the availability of rifle ranges so it is our interest to support the ranges we still have rather than mourning what has been lost. Some have got this massage but others not so much.
Regards Grandpamac.

Back in South Africa we tried to bridge the gap between (TR) or Bisley as its commonly known, by hosting F-Class Hunter days where hunters and LR shooters could use their hunting and PRS rigs to shoot out to 1000m.

The guys went so far as to change the black circle to an animal silouette with the X positioned on the hart.

The hunters grew into it quite quickly and before long they were happy shooting at the normal TR targets.

Its definately a move in the right direction.

The SA Hunters (Basically NZDS) realized hunters found the normal 4P type shoots quite boring and started hosting different dissiplanes, aimed at simulating hunting situations.

I tried to do something simular once I settled in, but the interest is not there yet and some club commitees just cancels you immideately if you try to suggest something other than 4P.


I think the F-class hunter type shoot is a move in the right direction. Shooters interest has changed, forever.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @caberslash,
Granted it is much harder to make a living using a rifle but it is also much less expensive to own a rifle. It costs around 7 times more to purchase a T3 than I paid for my M700 ADL in the 1970's. a car is ten times the price and property well north of that. A Tasco 2.5 power scope with rings cost about $100.00 in the 70's. Our problem going forward is likely to be the availability of rifle ranges so it is our interest to support the ranges we still have rather than mourning what has been lost. Some have got this massage but others not so much.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by Jaco Goosen

Back in South Africa we tried to bridge the gap between (TR) or Bisley as its commonly known, by hosting F-Class Hunter days where hunters and LR shooters could use their hunting and PRS rigs to shoot out to 1000m.

The guys went so far as to change the black circle to an animal silouette with the X positioned on the hart.

The hunters grew into it quite quickly and before long they were happy shooting at the normal TR targets.

Its definately a move in the right direction.

The SA Hunters (Basically NZDS) realized hunters found the normal 4P type shoots quite boring and started hosting different dissiplanes, aimed at simulating hunting situations.

I tried to do something simular once I settled in, but the interest is not there yet and some club commitees just cancels you immideately if you try to suggest something other than 4P.


I think the F-class hunter type shoot is a move in the right direction. Shooters interest has changed, forever.

Having experienced some similar issues with a club, which has on the whole been positive in terms of ease of joining and friendly members (not so much with others, would have been easier to join the Freemasons!), I think an 'adapt or die' approach is required.

New members are always required and changes will inevitably come with new blood. The tasks such as cutting grass, putting up signs or marking butts are not difficult, but you need to foster the right atmosphere, otherwise you land up with a situation where the ranges are treated as a 'cheap facility' where volunteers are treated like staff by some. Not good and the club will eventually fold if the volunteers don't feel appreciated and get a good return for their time and effort.

Something I always try to do, is offer or even encourage someone who does not have their own firearm at hand to shoot my rifle and ammunition under supervision, when I know they are safe and have the basic principles in place. This can help them avoid expensive and unnecessary purchases as they get an idea of what different scopes, stocks and triggers feel like.

If old members don't want change, they should leave instead of making the club either exceedingly expensive/difficult to join (whilst 'life or founding members essentially shoot for free) or discourage new members, whether through negative attitude or comments.

On a positive note, I see that there are always young people who take an interest in shooting, but without parental support and guidance, this initial interest is difficult to nurture, so they might have to wait until adulthood for a chance to shoot on their own time, but money can be a big barrier to entry.

Instead of being seen as a 'group that shooting must bend over backwards to appeal to', all visitors or new members should be treated equally and not receive either too much or too little attention from senior members who are looked to for advice and assistance. I think some female members may receive the former and be a bit put off. Likewise if someone does not speak English as their first language, they may have difficulty asking important questions and so there needs to be a fine balance.

In NZ you have the good fortune of access to public land for recreation, where firearms are still allowed (seemingly only under the provision of 'free pest control' to DOC...?).

Would it be considered wrong to set up temporary targets or shoot rocks on DOC land? So long as it was done safely and away from public access tracks to avoid noise pollution?

I think rock shooting when scouting public land before hunting season (in the free parts of the USA) is a great way for hunters to improve their marksmanship and also learn what sort of wind drift they can expect from their projectiles in an area where quarry might be present in the future.

Any notion of lead pollution from the above is pure nonsense, and should be recognised as a line pushed by 'anti-gunners'. Be very weary of the promotion of 'lead free' projectiles as there are going to be (potentially) toxic metals in any type of bullet or projectile, and lead is a core component of primer manufacturing. Anyone encouraging a 'conversion to lead-free' isn't really a rifle shooter.

Greetings @caberslash and all,
The DoC Hunting Permit authorises ground based non-commercial hunting only so no pop up ranges. I do remember a conversation with DoC regarding sighting in of rifles and the responce was that a check shot after a fall was OK if done discretely but any form of shooting at targets, including rocks was out. Time has clouded the context of the conversation somewhat but this may have been a generous local interpretation by a staff member rather than DoC policy.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @caberslash and all,
The DoC Hunting Permit authorises ground based non-commercial hunting only so no pop up ranges. I do remember a conversation with DoC regarding sighting in of rifles and the responce was that a check shot after a fall was OK if done discretely but any form of shooting at targets, including rocks was out. Time has clouded the context of the conversation somewhat but this may have been a generous local interpretation by a staff member rather than DoC policy.
Regards Grandpamac.

If a tree falls over in a forest but no one is there to hear it...?

Originally Posted by 308

yeah looked at my local NRA club (MTN) and they have published lots of pics with shooters first and last names clearly visible

A dealbreaker for me

Shooters can and do ask for their names not to be published.
Clubs accept and honour those requests.

Originally Posted by caberslash

If a tree falls over in a forest but no one is there to hear it...?

But how would you know no one is there in a forest?

There is a correlation between long range shooting and long range animal shooting, I don't consider long range shooting of animals as hunting.
Yes you can use the skills you develop/learn on a rifle range to shoot animals at long ranges, but when you think about it all the people that do this have done is substitute the paper target for a live animal target. The primary skill is being able to hit the animal at a long distance, not get within a reasonable distance to make a clean killing shot.

I see the demise of the 3/4p type shooting as a sad thing, every hunter should have the skill to effectively shoot animals using these positions, prone, sitting, kneeling and standing, if they can't then they lack the skills to effectively make clean kills on animals.

Like everything how do you gain these skills? By practise, ie go and shoot targets on a range, and you should practise all forms of shooting positions so that you gain confidence in your equipment and ability which leads to better results in the field.

But it seems there is less encouragement and requirement to learn these skills today than there has been in the past, or the knowledge of "why" these skills are necessary hasn't been passed onto successive generations.

To give an example of why these skills are beneficial, at a number of shooting competitions I have noticed that those who do a bit of target shooting "practise" are able to score a similar score in each position, yet those that don't practise shooting targets usually have a worse score in prone (this is where the prone position is shot first) than they do in standing when the standing position is shot last. It is quite noticeable that the person who doesn't practise range shooting scores improve the more they shoot and which position they favour for shooting usually has the highest score.

Given this knowledge how do you encourage hunters to practise their shooting and develop their shooting skills? How do you make it a thing people want to do? I see this as something that would improve their success in the field.

Originally Posted by 19Badger

There is a correlation between long range shooting and long range animal shooting, I don't consider long range shooting of animals as hunting.
Yes you can use the skills you develop/learn on a rifle range to shoot animals at long ranges, but when you think about it all the people that do this have done is substitute the paper target for a live animal target. The primary skill is being able to hit the animal at a long distance, not get within a reasonable distance to make a clean killing shot.

I see the demise of the 3/4p type shooting as a sad thing, every hunter should have the skill to effectively shoot animals using these positions, prone, sitting, kneeling and standing, if they can't then they lack the skills to effectively make clean kills on animals.

Like everything how do you gain these skills? By practise, ie go and shoot targets on a range, and you should practise all forms of shooting positions so that you gain confidence in your equipment and ability which leads to better results in the field.

But it seems there is less encouragement and requirement to learn these skills today than there has been in the past, or the knowledge of "why" these skills are necessary hasn't been passed onto successive generations.

To give an example of why these skills are beneficial, at a number of shooting competitions I have noticed that those who do a bit of target shooting "practise" are able to score a similar score in each position, yet those that don't practise shooting targets usually have a worse score in prone (this is where the prone position is shot first) than they do in standing when the standing position is shot last. It is quite noticeable that the person who doesn't practise range shooting scores improve the more they shoot and which position they favour for shooting usually has the highest score.

Given this knowledge how do you encourage hunters to practise their shooting and develop their shooting skills? How do you make it a thing people want to do? I see this as something that would improve their success in the field.

Maybe you should try bowhunting instead.

Or maybe not, as you'll have another whinge when someone nails a deer at 100 yards with a compound bow.

As noted earlier, people were shooting at other people and animals further and further away as time progressed.

Hence the reason for continuous bullet/ammunition, rifle and scope development.

If you want to turn it into an ethics debate, plenty of animals have been lost at close range due to fuckups as well.

I don't think anyone sets out in their right mind to non-fatally wound a deer while hunting (although I was told about one sicko who deliberately leg-shot deer to train his tracking dogs... also happened to be a 'use copper bullets as lead ones are bad' loony, thankfully we never crossed paths).

But if someone runs into a deer over with a vehicle of some type, it's an 'unfortunate accident'...?

@caberslash who said "every hunter should have the skill to effectively shoot animals using these positions, prone, sitting, kneeling and standing, if they can't then they lack the skills to effectively make clean kills on animals.

Like everything how do you gain these skills? By practise, ie go and shoot targets on a range, and you should practise all forms of shooting positions so that you gain confidence in your equipment and ability which leads to better results in the field."



I have some real disagreement with this. It smacks of elitism. I am a member of a range that assiduously practices 3/4position shooting. I rarely go now. Why? Because they have no ability to accommodate how I hunt which is off sticks, standing. In the NZDA Hunts Course I did, one of their mantras was any rest is better than no rest. Whether a pack prone, a rock or log or a tree or post standing etc. I take my rest with me. Can I shoot prone? yes I can. Should I be forced to in order to participate? Well I don't mind there being competitions and club events where shooting prone is part of the course of fire. But where a club neglects to accommodate other methods and stipulates a particular format only then they simply exclude a part of the shooting population. That's fine if they have a surfeit of members. What rifle club can boast that however these days?

What I need to know to hunt effectively is not 3/4p shooting. What I need is to be proficient at my chosen style of shooting, and to be willing to pass up shots that don't offer that style.

I went out on a guided hunt where I was told to leave my sticks on the vehicle, put onto a deer at 140m, basically pushed to the ground and told to shoot off the guides pack prone. I shot clean over the deers shoulder from for a me very uncomfortable shooting position I was not used to and have no intention of practicing. The next opportunity that arose not a word was said when I took my sticks. I dropped my target with a neck shot. After I was grudgingly told it was a good shot.

Purist thinking may have its time and place..I teach my grandkids the 3/4 positions for shooting. I also have them shoot off my sticks, a tree trunk, a post and offhand. When we go hunting they get to choose. If they want to shoot prone off a bipod and the grass is too long they have to wait until an opportunity presents that they can do that.. or they miss out. Of all the shooting positions available, shooting prone would have to require the most favorable conditions. Off a standing rest, the least. The pre-occupation with prone shooting seems to me to be a hangover from military practice where yiu are likely to endure return fire. Fortunately, deer don't shoot back.

Originally Posted by Jhon

@caberslash who said "every hunter should have the skill to effectively shoot animals using these positions, prone, sitting, kneeling and standing, if they can't then they lack the skills to effectively make clean kills on animals.

Like everything how do you gain these skills? By practise, ie go and shoot targets on a range, and you should practise all forms of shooting positions so that you gain confidence in your equipment and ability which leads to better results in the field."



I have some real disagreement with this. It smacks of elitism. I am a member of a range that assiduously practices 3/4position shooting. I rarely go now. Why? Because they have no ability to accommodate how I hunt which is off sticks, standing. In the NZDA Hunts Course I did, one of their mantras was any rest is better than no rest. Whether a pack prone, a rock or log or a tree or post standing etc. I take my rest with me. Can I shoot prone? yes I can. Should I be forced to in order to participate? Well I don't mind there being competitions and club events where shooting prone is part of the course of fire. But where a club neglects to accommodate other methods and stipulates a particular format only then they simply exclude a part of the shooting population. That's fine if they have a surfeit of members. What rifle club can boast that however these days?

What I need to know to hunt effectively is not 3/4p shooting. What I need is to be proficient at my chosen style of shooting, and to be willing to pass up shots that don't offer that style.

I went out on a guided hunt where I was told to leave my sticks on the vehicle, put onto a deer at 140m, basically pushed to the ground and told to shoot off the guides pack prone. I shot clean over the deers shoulder from for a me very uncomfortable shooting position I was not used to and have no intention of practicing. The next opportunity that arose not a word was said when I took my sticks. I dropped my target with a neck shot. After I was grudgingly told it was a good shot.

Purist thinking may have its time and place..I teach my grandkids the 3/4 positions for shooting. I also have them shoot off my sticks, a tree trunk, a post and offhand. When we go hunting they get to choose. If they want to shoot prone off a bipod and the grass is too long they have to wait until an opportunity presents that they can do that.. or they miss out. Of all the shooting positions available, shooting prone would have to require the most favorable conditions. Off a standing rest, the least. The pre-occupation with prone shooting seems to me to be a hangover from military practice where yiu are likely to endure return fire. Fortunately, deer don't shoot back.

I wasn't being elitist at all, I was simply saying if you practise all shooting positions they all become practical positions to use to take game and you are able to take game in any situation.
All shooting positions, prone, sitting kneeling and standing probably have their origin in military, just like the firearms you use, but what has that got to do with the ability and confidence to take game cleanly in any situation using any position required.

To return to the original topic - I appreciate @grandpamac 's mention of contacting NRA Ranges for access to longer range shooting opportunities. It's an excellent reminder and sometimes an invitation is needed to get people into the right mindset.

In case it's relevant to to anyone running an NRA or other traditional organized long range shoots who are struggling for new members, I have never gotten out to organized shoots for two reasons:

1) Most shoots seem to start at 300 or 400, but most recreational ranges end at 200.... so from a personal standpoint, I don't want to be the goof who rocks up to an NRA style shoot who hasn't had the chance to shoot or practice with my rifle at even the starting distance. It would be mighty embarrassing to have to muddle through and slow everyone down because I'm having to figure everything out on the day.

I have intermittently checked my local long-range shoot schedules but haven't seen anything that looks like "new long range shooter" drop in days, or other days that would suggest I could show up and work through things at my own pace. In speaking with my local club they have a day coming up that might work, so hopefully that pans out, but it already looks like life commitments are going to block that (see point 2).

The solution to this issue is at least pretty straight forward. Run 3-4 "newbie" days a year where the sole goal for the day is to get a short range shooter on paper at 300, 400, 500+m. You would need to advertise these newbie days through your local short range gun clubs (pistol, trap, rifle) for at least several months in advance to ensure uptake from the non-long range community (you don't get new members by advertising to current members), and you'd really need to run 3-4 of them a year due to people not always being free to come on that particular day (point 2 again).

2) I am time poor. The odds of me being free on specific days is slim. My local range has extended hours so I can go when I get an unexpected spare hour or two - this is true of pretty much all my hobbies. There is an aspect of making time for things that are important, but by and large the hobbies have to fit around life commitments.

Not really sure how to solve for this one other than sharing the organized schedule more widely through kindred clubs so that potential members are more aware of when the shoots are happening in case they end up with time and know where and when to go to check things out.

Just reading the few posts above.
I think we all agree that all the practice on paper we can get is valuable for the shots we take in the field.
Regarding the 3/4 position shooting, or shooting of sticks, all of it is good as long as we recognise the limits that each positions give us:
I.e, you might be able to take a standing 75m body shot ( talking about deer here), 100yard kneeling shot, a 150 yrds sitting shot and a 300 yards prone shot. Some might be able to strech those distances some not.

The difference with paper shooting, is that when you are hunting an animal, you lose a certain amount of your shooting abilities due to the adrenaline and the excitement of the hunt ( and also maybe from the mountain you just climbed or the 12 km you just walked). I have heard of a French guy who regularly goes to Scotland with his flash blaser , zeiss scope and all the gizmos , who shoot pretty well on paper, at fairly good distances. But when it comes to shooting an animal… let’s just say that the bullet rarely touches what he intending to shoot at. Obviously the excitement is taking over . That is one aspect of what can restrict our abilities that a lot of us are denying or conveniently forgot, it could be a male thing ,not willing to show emotions , that could be perceived as weakness…

Regarding the aspect of long range hunting and the chances of wounding animal, they do seriously exist. And the saying that “ plenty of animals have been lost at close range due to fuckups as well”, which indeed is true, is quite often an excuse used by guys who don’t want to be criticised for the shots they take at longer distance at animals , be it with a bow or a rifle . One example is the longrangehunting forum in the USA, which will close if not ban any discussion of the ethics of long range hunting… I guess it is not good for business .

One last thing I wanted to mention , is an example of the shoot we had today.
We had 11 teams of two shooters , shooting at 1000yrds. More than half of the guns on the lines were highly priced custom competition rifles ( prs or f class/f-pr) with fine tuned loads in good wind bucking calibers. Some of the shooters were very well seasoned shooters.
The course of fire was all shot prone. No time limit.
First target was an nra electronic target. 5 shot each (10 shots per team). Which effectively allows you to adjust for each shot to be as close to the center as possible.
The second target was a 1000 yrds benchrest target, again electronic, so you can refine as much as you possibly can where your shots are going within the atmospheric conditions.again 5 shots each.
The third target was a full size deer, side way. The aiming point is a 10” circle in the vital zone with activating plate in the background connecting to a red flasher. You are allowed three shots per shooter. And your team mate can spot for you.
Out of the 66 shots (11 teams of 2 x 3 bullets each), there was no more than 6 bullets that hit the 10” target, and only one got it on the first shot ( if I remember the stats well).
And again there is no adrenaline , no hunting pressure and no time limit.so you could pretty much pick your best wind moment within reason. Your scope dialed for the existing conditions and the distance .
I forgot to mentions the wind flags halfway and at the target.

This just to illustrate, that the long distance shots on animals , in hunting conditions is way harder than we think it is and that the success can quite often be attributed luck and that you will probably will never be shown the fuckups on videos.

Originally Posted by canross

To return to the original topic - I appreciate @grandpamac 's mention of contacting NRA Ranges for access to longer range shooting opportunities. It's an excellent reminder and sometimes an invitation is needed to get people into the right mindset.

In case it's relevant to to anyone running an NRA or other traditional organized long range shoots who are struggling for new members, I have never gotten out to organized shoots for two reasons:

1) Most shoots seem to start at 300 or 400, but most recreational ranges end at 200.... so from a personal standpoint, I don't want to be the goof who rocks up to an NRA style shoot who hasn't had the chance to shoot or practice with my rifle at even the starting distance. It would be mighty embarrassing to have to muddle through and slow everyone down because I'm having to figure everything out on the day.

I have intermittently checked my local long-range shoot schedules but haven't seen anything that looks like "new long range shooter" drop in days, or other days that would suggest I could show up and work through things at my own pace. In speaking with my local club they have a day coming up that might work, so hopefully that pans out, but it already looks like life commitments are going to block that (see point 2).

The solution to this issue is at least pretty straight forward. Run 3-4 "newbie" days a year where the sole goal for the day is to get a short range shooter on paper at 300, 400, 500+m. You would need to advertise these newbie days through your local short range gun clubs (pistol, trap, rifle) for at least several months in advance to ensure uptake from the non-long range community (you don't get new members by advertising to current members), and you'd really need to run 3-4 of them a year due to people not always being free to come on that particular day (point 2 again).

2) I am time poor. The odds of me being free on specific days is slim. My local range has extended hours so I can go when I get an unexpected spare hour or two - this is true of pretty much all my hobbies. There is an aspect of making time for things that are important, but by and large the hobbies have to fit around life commitments.

Not really sure how to solve for this one other than sharing the organized schedule more widely through kindred clubs so that potential members are more aware of when the shoots are happening in case they end up with time and know where and when to go to check things out.

Greetings @canross,
I had the same dilemma with my first shoots having only ever shot on the range at 300 yards and that many years ago. 300 yards is a bit of a doddle as a 200 metre zero will get you close to the scoring rings with only a little dial up but 600 yards is something different. I wasn't confident on dialling to that distance so I made up a target with the point of impact at 200 metres for a 600 yard zero marked on it.

The trajectory is for the chronographed velocity for the load in the rifle I was using and the latest BC I could find for the 145 grain projectile. Point of aim is on the target at the bottom and calculated POI for a 550 metre (600 yards) zero is the little cross about 800mm above. Worked a treat with my first sighter scoring a 4 from memory.
Shooting at 1,000 yards is still in the future. I will probably zero and shoot at 600 yards first, validating the click values in the process and then dial up for the balance. I should have developed a bit more confidence by then.
Regards Grandpamac.

@canross, agree with comments and dilemma re time etc. @19Badger maybe elitist was a poor choice of word. The point I was trying to make, perhaps badly, was having been to a member of a couple of NZDA ranges over the years, they seem fixated on the 3/4p courses of fire. Unless perhaps Silhouette is being shot. That's fine and I've participated. However as I've grown older, and crankier, I am less and less inclined to lower my old carcass to the ground. Actually its not the going down or even being uncomfortably prone as much as the getting up again lol.

Maybe it's just a young person's game after all. And yet I can shoot offhand and off sticks as much as I want. There are no courses of fire being offered that allow me to participate in that way. I would love to move from sub 200m to competency at 300+ The range days offered however are base on 3/4p shooting only. And with a range open only on weekends there are no flexi hours available for individual shooters or small groups doing their particular thing.

My solution is simply to go off on my own to a private bit of land whenever I can. I would prefer to shoot in a club with others. I keep running into folk who likewise eschew their local clubs simply because of the rigid insistence on the traditions of 3/4p shooting. Anyway enough. The problem will go away in a few years lol