long range newbie starting out. gear wanted

hi guys after some advice or experience had on cheaper gear for long range shooting. have just picked up a 300 win mag went this way because I want to tip over deer and goats out to 800 but also have a crack at shooting steel to 1000. so what im after is a scope what sort of power and can it be done on a budget say $1000 and what do I look for in a range finder one I can use with my 308 too would be good. will use factory ammo to break the rifle in then will reload so if there are favorite loads to give ago im all ears.

Brace yourself.
Shooting moving (they most likely will move in the time it takes the pill to get there) targets out to those ranges is gonna be pretty mean on the deer/goats etc
I totally understand the long range interest, gong shooting is awesome fun.
There are plenty of gong shooters here and a few decent long range fellahs too.

Give the animals a fair go and kill some steel mate!

WHEN and ONLY when you have mastered the rifle and are acchieving groups of half inch CONSISTANTLY then start to think about shooting past 500 yards...
honest inch will get you out that far IN IDEAL CONDITIONS WITH ALL DUCKS IN ROW .......anything less and you may as well start pissing in the wind.
get the basics sorted .you need to walk before you run.

steel and targets is where I am going to start but animals is where I want to end up, I know its a progression art of shooting but its also experience so its get out there and do it and spend time putting pills down range

Hi country cuts. Welcome to the long range sickness. Unfortunately long range and cheap will never be seen in the same sentence. You will need to aim for a scope more in the $1500-$2000 range like the Vortex Viper PST or Athlon with exposed turrets with a 6-24 power range. Range finders that will work to 1000m will run up to $1000 be very careful of claimed range abilities. It will take some time to get your gear together resist the urge to get gear that will get you to the range but will disappoint in performance.

When you can shot MOA HUNREDS of times out to 400yds then pick on animals out to 400yds.
Standard hunters budget will get you to 300yds.10 times the budget to shoot ACCURATLY to 800yds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by country cuts

hi guys after some advice or experience had on cheaper gear for long range shooting. have just picked up a 300 win mag went this way because I want to tip over deer and goats out to 800 but also have a crack at shooting steel to 1000. so what im after is a scope what sort of power and can it be done on a budget say $1000 and what do I look for in a range finder one I can use with my 308 too would be good. will use factory ammo to break the rifle in then will reload so if there are favorite loads to give ago im all ears.

---

Hi mate.

Similarly, this is why I bought a 300wm. I am probably getting on top of it nearly a year in. If I were to make a comparison, long range shooting is akin to archery. You need to have a solid understanding of all your variables, including yourself.

I could pretty much shoot it to 650m out of the box and that is really still my limit on a goat in the wild due to variables I'm not good at judging.

I have several steel plates which I hope to get back into in spring. 1000m on steel is quite straight forward really. Three for three on my first attempt. Have yet to go beyond that.

In terms of my set up, it's a B14 hunter, suppressed, Harris bipod, viper PST gen 2 FFP mil. Matched rings, rail. Stabilised and bedded myself. Handloads are 208eldms which, depending on my shooting on the day, I can group between 0.3 and 0.6 moa. It's a hunting rifle first and foremost, not a long range rig.

My advice would be to get consistent at the mid ranges for a good time before moving out further. This will let you bed in your equipment and yourself.

The PST gen 2 has kept me happy this far as an economical longer range scope.

Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feral

Hi mate.

Similarly, this is why I bought a 300wm. I am probably getting on top of it nearly a year in. If I were to make a comparison, long range shooting is akin to archery. You need to have a solid understanding of all your variables, including yourself.

I could pretty much shoot it to 650m out of the box and that is really still my limit on a goat in the wild due to variables I'm not good at judging.

I have several steel plates which I hope to get back into in spring. 1000m on steel is quite straight forward really. Three for three on my first attempt. Have yet to go beyond that.

In terms of my set up, it's a B14 hunter, suppressed, Harris bipod, viper PST gen 2 FFP mil. Matched rings, rail. Stabilised and bedded myself. Handloads are 208eldms which, depending on my shooting on the day, I can group between 0.3 and 0.6 moa. It's a hunting rifle first and foremost, not a long range rig.

My advice would be to get consistent at the mid ranges for a good time before moving out further. This will let you bed in your equipment and yourself.

The PST gen 2 has kept me happy this far as an economical longer range scope.

Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

---

thanks mate this the stuff im after my rig will be mainly hunting to. seems most of the advice is animal shooting with this kind of rig will be safe/good to 600m

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by country cuts

thanks mate this the stuff im after my rig will be mainly hunting to. seems most of the advice is animal shooting with this kind of rig will be safe/good to 600m

---

"safe/good" depends on how ambivalent you are about causing misery to animals you shoot at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by country cuts

thanks mate this the stuff im after my rig will be mainly hunting to. seems most of the advice is animal shooting with this kind of rig will be safe/good to 600m

---

Yes, if it is well set up, you know your ballistics, and you have trained yourself up to be a disciplined decision-maker and a very competent shooter.

Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 257weatherby

"safe/good" depends on how ambivalent you are about causing misery to animals you shoot at.

---

shoot to kill is my motto and if your not confident or happy you dont take the shot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mimms2

I'll add to the chorus of dissent. You don't sound ready to even try and murder (or more likely horrifically wound) animals at 800.

And how are you going to recover them afterwards??

Learn a bit of stalk-in skills and do it properly. Save the wannabe-sniper for paper and plates.

When you can pop bunnies at 300 every time, then come back to this idea. Until then you have much learning ahead of you.

Good luck finding factory ammo that accurate, and all.

Come back and post when you've fired 1000 rounds and tell us what you've learned.

---

seems everyone has focused on the one part of this thread the long range killing. ive got the picture 800 is pushing it and im not running out there today to do it, i also know alot of range time has to go in and dope chart etc created what i want to know is what is some resonable priced gear to get there as for the factory loads the gun is new so was going to use them to break in the barrel properly ie 1 shot and clean for 10 2 shots and clean for next 10. im a new long range shooting not new shooter to start with. with my 308 set up i am confidently puting down deer out to 200 and head shooting cattle for work at 100 my 2-7 scope limits me a bit to go further confidently and inside 25m i use a 22wmr. What i am wanting from the thread is people who have done the same thing and what gear did or did not work for them or loads they have found good i have reloading gear and do so with my 308, will quite happily shoot 1000 rounds and report back, but what i am asking is what would you use ie scope and loads etc to get the 1000 rounds started thanks

totally understand your interest and passion for long range, but as others have stated above spend plenty of time on paper or steel to establish your & your equipment limitations and capabilities first.
Then also understand that this may not always translate in the hunting situation due to other variables that come into play.
In terms of equipment - range finders the Bushnell fusion binos ARC 1 mile are very good value for money and very good long range capability. Come up second hand for under $1k. I hear good things about some of the Sig Sauer RF's and not too spendie. Scope 2nd hand best given a budget of $1k - Sightron, Leupy VX6, Zeiss Z4 or HD5, maybe a Vortex but optical quality is a bit hit & miss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mimms2

Also. You already had a .308.
That'll do steel at 1k. Have you learned, or better, mastered that yet?

---

the 308 is a bush pig with a 16 inch barrel and 2-7 scope and is ideal for the short to medium 200 or less hence going to the bigger caliber and set up so that once i have the time and confidence under my belt the rig and i are good to go

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chainsaw

totally understand your interest and passion for long range, but as others have stated above spend plenty of time on paper or steel to establish your & your equipment limitations and capabilities first.
Then also understand that this may not always translate in the hunting situation due to other variables that come into play.
In terms of equipment - range finders the Bushnell fusion binos ARC 1 mile are very good value for money and very good long range capability. Come up second hand for under $1k. I hear good things about some of the Sig Sauer RF's and not too spendie. Scope 2nd hand best given a budget of $1k - Sightron, Leupy VX6, Zeiss Z4 or HD5, maybe a Vortex but optical quality is a bit hit & miss.

---

thanks will keep my eye out for the above

If you are currently using a 2-7x then a step up to 4.5-14x or similar will be a big benefit further out. VX3 or similar will be within your budget. Then spend as much again practicing with it.:(
Maybe @Sarvo can help?

My little vixen 3x12 scope on a 20 rail will get my 308 to 800yds easily using Hornady 165gr or 150gr.But most deer or roos are inside 300yds.
If your animals are 600 to 1000yds out,you should be able to stalk in on them.Im also the caretaker of a 300 win mag,26 in barrel.With Hornady 180ge ssts its pretty reliable at blowing rabbit heads off at 400yds.I could easily shot deer out to 800yds with the 300, but I still got to collect them after shooting them.I do enjoy the stalk in on them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shearer

If you are currently using a 2-7x then a step up to 4.5-14x or similar will be a big benefit further out. VX3 or similar will be within your budget. Then spend as much again practicing with it.:(
Maybe @Sarvo can help?

---

yeah i understand that but i have the set up for work i have cut the velocity back a bit and use a round nose sp projectile so when you shoot beef it doesnt pass through and down the spinal cord and out the back or neck etc. and yes you can shoot down on them or up at them to eliminate that too but they are animals and sometimes you can only get a straight on shot, it is a good rifle for what i use it for inclose in the bush and for work, but wanting to go out further and dont want to muck around re zeroing,( i dont have exposed turrets or zero stop or bdc just a duplex and i hold over) and chopping and changing ammo so i thought set up a 300win mag start at 25m and work out getting time to understand it and become capable with it. i understand what others are saying in start with a smaller caliber and get that going and step up but why not just set up one gun and spend all your time on it and not have to change it out later. just my thoughts anyway

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by country cuts

i understand what others are saying in start with a smaller caliber and get that going and step up but why not just set up one gun and spend all your time on it and not have to change it out later. just my thoughts anyway

---

For what it is worth, I also have a 223 which I have set up and shoot that to over 900yds with match ammo. It's a hoot and is good, cheap training on steel. Much cheaper than 300WM to train common principles and practices.

Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trout

My little vixen 3x12 scope on a 20 rail will get my 308 to 800yds easily using Hornady 165gr or 150gr.But most deer or roos are inside 300yds.
If your animals are 600 to 1000yds out,you should be able to stalk in on them.Im also the caretaker of a 300 win mag,26 in barrel.With Hornady 180ge ssts its pretty reliable at blowing rabbit heads off at 400yds.I could easily shot deer out to 800yds with the 300, but I still got to collect them after shooting them.I do enjoy the stalk in on them.

---

nice the long shots on deer are farm ones so easy to recover i could have brought another 308 but wanted another caliber so settled on the 300 win mag, my 308 is set up for work and the round nose soft points probably arent ideal to get out there and dont want to be mucking around re zeroing as i use it nearly every week other wise i would have put a better scope on and picked a load for the 308 to do it, what powder are you running for your 300 loads

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feral

For what it is worth, I also have a 223 which I have set up and shoot that to over 900yds with match ammo. It's a hoot and is good, cheap training on steel. Much cheaper than 300WM to train common principles and practices.

Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

---

yeah looked at them and another 308 but never had a big caliber so was a case of have a go and learn

I don't reload,308 fmj 147gr (cheap as )for roos and rabbits and practice.I zero with on the shelf Hornady ssts 150gr and 147gr fmj has the same zero at a 100yds,good enough for out to 250 yds on roos.The 300 I only use Hornady ssts 180gr.Expensive but deadly accurate.
Don't shoot farm deer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shearer

If you are currently using a 2-7x then a step up to 4.5-14x or similar will be a big benefit further out. VX3 or similar will be within your budget. Then spend as much again practicing with it.:(
Maybe @Sarvo can help?

---

I just mounted a Delta Titanium HD 4-24×50 SFP on my S&L 6.5
I have never used a scope with such high Mag
I am looking 4200m across bay - amazing with the SF - I can clearly see everything (not going to mention exact details :-)
I think its time I found some open terrain to hunt - the scope will not be the limiter that is for sure

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by country cuts

yeah i understand that but i have the set up for work i have cut the velocity back a bit and use a round nose sp projectile so when you shoot beef it doesnt pass through and down the spinal cord and out the back or neck etc. and yes you can shoot down on them or up at them to eliminate that too but they are animals and sometimes you can only get a straight on shot, it is a good rifle for what i use it for inclose in the bush and for work, but wanting to go out further and dont want to muck around re zeroing,( i dont have exposed turrets or zero stop or bdc just a duplex and i hold over) and chopping and changing ammo so i thought set up a 300win mag start at 25m and work out getting time to understand it and become capable with it. i understand what others are saying in start with a smaller caliber and get that going and step up but why not just set up one gun and spend all your time on it and not have to change it out later. just my thoughts anyway

---

Yeah. I meant a 4.5-14 or similar on your 300WM.

308 a very cheap rifle to feed,depending on yr choice of ammo,targets and animals.

@country cuts.
Seems to me after reading your thread that you are quite experienced with short .308win out to 200 or so. The 300 magnums are very good for longer range but there are considerablely more severe external ballistics factors you need to be aware of. Stresses on action and barrel and the vibrations / harmonics generated on bedding and stock ad well as much more heat generation all mean a heavier action, stock and barrel will allow more precise shooting. Relatively heavy action bolts and barrel such as in schultz and larsens will serve you better than "lite" models. Various barrel lengths and muzzle diameters are options for these and similar high end brands of rifles. As far as scope are concerned, strong bases and rings are mandatory in order to get best performance from your chsen scope. As others have mentioned a Leupold 4.4-14*40 will get you out to 800 easily. Once you get competent at condistently shooting groups central on aiming mark not exceeding 8" @ 800 or 5" @ 500 yards you will be in a situation of enough confidence to perhaps upgrade your equipment even more. However, long shots at animals are generally very difficult. Personally, I have done a lot of shooting at game and targets (now in mid 70's) and would think very carefully even now, before attempting a kill shot at 500, wind etc considered, even with .30 mag hunting rifle.
Pricewise your probably looking at (new gear):--
Rifle $2500-$4500.
Mounts and rings; $250-$300+.
Scope--$1200-$2000.
Add to that you dies, brass, powder etc. As for bullets, I have found the tried and true Sierra sbt gameking 180's just as accurate ad all the great new tipped long blah blah stuff; just a little higher trajectory is all, and not so fussy to sort for a good load. Good luck. Get the heaviest action and barrel you can bear to hunt with.

Just another point. The leupy 4.5-14 has a b&c varminter option. This has finer crosshairs and hokdover graticles and allows more precise aim than standard duplex reticle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woody

@country cuts.
Seems to me after reading your thread that you are quite experienced with short .308win out to 200 or so. The 300 magnums are very good for longer range but there are considerablely more severe external ballistics factors you need to be aware of. Stresses on action and barrel and the vibrations / harmonics generated on bedding and stock ad well as much more heat generation all mean a heavier action, stock and barrel will allow more precise shooting. Relatively heavy action bolts and barrel such as in schultz and larsens will serve you better than "lite" models. Various barrel lengths and muzzle diameters are options for these and similar high end brands of rifles. As far as scope are concerned, strong bases and rings are mandatory in order to get best performance from your chsen scope. As others have mentioned a Leupold 4.4-14*40 will get you out to 800 easily. Once you get competent at condistently shooting groups central on aiming mark not exceeding 8" @ 800 or 5" @ 500 yards you will be in a situation of enough confidence to perhaps upgrade your equipment even more. However, long shots at animals are generally very difficult. Personally, I have done a lot of shooting at game and targets (now in mid 70's) and would think very carefully even now, before attempting a kill shot at 500, wind etc considered, even with .30 mag hunting rifle.
Pricewise your probably looking at (new gear):--
Rifle $2500-$4500.
Mounts and rings; $250-$300+.
Scope--$1200-$2000.
Add to that you dies, brass, powder etc. As for bullets, I have found the tried and true Sierra sbt gameking 180's just as accurate ad all the great new tipped long blah blah stuff; just a little higher trajectory is all, and not so fussy to sort for a good load. Good luck. Get the heaviest action and barrel you can bear to hunt with.

---

thanks for that might look into a graduation in glass was going to buy a good scope and cry once but budget isn't going to allow by the looks these are the tips etc to help me out

Good choice for the long range stuff (300 WM) my 300 wm has a 4x16 Vortex HS and find it fine and reliable which won't break the bank ( bit over a thousand these days)
I think some of the cheaper high magnification scope when using them at over 20 power can get a bit fuzzy and that is where the more expensive brands come into there own.
I have only shot steel at long range and don't think I would take a shot at an animal at around 600 yards unless the conditions were right. 600 yards is a bloody long way in my books .
I would be inclined to use at least the 200 gr bullet in the 300 WM for long range shooting. I use the 200 gr ELD X and RL 26 powder for about 2900 fps.
Plenty of practice will get you there, and start shooting at animals at 300 then 400 yds as your confidence in rifle, reading the conditions and your personal ability and you won't go to far wrong.

@country cut. Here is a link that hold some insights. Both the Canadian and Danish army have adopted this colt as a sniper rifle. .308 win. 18" bbl. Proven reliable .66 moa groups over all ranges and conditions. But note the weight. 18" bbl; empty mag; without scope or suppressor fitted. 9.1 pounds. Those specs tell us something about solidity of action and bbl as well as the proven 7.62*51 cartridge. They're using velocity of only around 2600fps.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-sniper-rifle/

...a long range to practice on.

Hi Country Guy,

Welcome to the forum. You've shown a good, measured response to some daft flaming.

You've done the right thing, starting with the 300WM. Wise move to keep the 16" 308 for under 200m. You need the magnum power at the far end because a lot is lost on the way and shots will never be super well placed at over 500m. The magnum will fare a lot better with wind too. Equally important there the several variables you will need to adjust for on every shot past 500m, which make it very hard to get a first shot kill out there. The furthest I've shot an animal is just over 300m, so I'm by no means an expert. But I've shot enough at gongs to know it's not easy. What's the reason no one shoots deer at 800m ?
Wind - varies over the distance and often impossible to read. Significant even with a 300WM. Typical values will be 1-4 MOA at 500m. @Woody can tell us what it can be at 800 - he shoots it.
Barometric pressure hugely affects trajectory so you will need to have this well sorted for each individual shot.
Cold bore, slope, powder temp and extreme spread of MV are all pretty much insignificant under 300m but can each add a MOA or two one way or the other at 500m

Scope factors that need to be just right and you have to test them with your own gear:
Sharpness at top mag - difficult to get an economical scope that is clear above 15x.
Adjustment per click over a range of 20 - 30MOA and back to zero.
Parallax
Vertical movement straight up and down (mostly depends on your mounting whether its square to the bore line or not.)
Holding zero from one week to the next.

So, it will be quite difficult to get a good enough scope for under $1500 new.
I'd suggest the Leupold VX3i 4.5-14, which has some drawbacks but does these basics pretty well for 500m shooting.
Another approach would be to look for a second hand Nightforce from a kindly long range gear freak wanting to upgrade.

You're unlikely to really have to shoot from 800m.
If a hunter could kill 3 deer with 4 shots at 500m they would be a legend.

I'll chime in with my experience, for what it's worth.
I've done a fair bit of long rang target shooting, and a little bit of hunting, but to me they are almost separate interests that happen to have an overlap of some skills. I know few people that actually shoot animals out to 800m plus and thankfully they are really, really good shots and they take responsibility where the animals welfare come in. I've hit 4 out of 5 shots on an IPSC gong at 1500m with the .338 I was using, but I wouldn't dream of taking a shot at an animal at more than a quarter of that distance unless I'd had a ton more practice. It sounds like you have a realistic view of things, and as others have said; you've got to be well practiced as well as understanding the science behind everything. Sadly marksmanship is like most skills and diminishes over time, so you've got keep practicing as much as possible (god knows I haven't done much recently myself).

In terms of gear, I've bought second hand Leupold and Nightforce scopes before and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again, that goes for any brand which has a lifetime transferable warranty. I've worked in hunting retail a bit and Leupold have always been good to deal with for warranty stuff, usually erring on the side of the consumer even in cases where the damage done ought to violate said warranty under the fine print. After 8 years selling riflescopes I've never seen a broken Nightforce, I've heard it can happen though =). Like others have said; target style turrets are good, most people adjust for elevation, some hold over if the reticle accommodates that. Personally I like to adjust for elevation but hold off for windage. Magnification is another matter of preference, I like to think if the target takes up the same angular size as it would with the naked eye at 100m, then that's suitable, so for 2000m 20x makes the target appear as large as it would 100m with irons or a red dot, and I figure if you're ringing gongs that's plenty. However for hunting you're not just putting the crosshairs on a target, but a vital area of the target, so I like double the above i.e. a deer at 700m through a scope on 14x looks like a deer at 50m. That being said you can't really have too much magnification, just be aware you'll pay more for it, and usually it comes at the expense of how low you go at the lower end of a vari-power.

Rangefinders, I used to have a Sig Sauer but my next one will be a Leupold. I tested a Leica 1600-something, Sig Kilo 2200, and Leupold RX-2800 on a building at 8 or 900m on a foggy day and the Leupold ranged it every time, the other two couldn't pick it up at all, even though it was well within the advertised range. On a fine day they all do the job, but to me that tells you about their reliability in crappy conditions, the Leupold was cheapest to boot. Leica had far better glass than the other two.

Ammo. Pretty much everyone reloads, and that's another can of worms in itself. I'd be asking myself what type of animal at what range the bullet in intended for. For example the Hornady SST should still expand fairly aggressively once it has travelled a wee way and lost some velocity, but anecdotally I've heard many times of people wounding an animal at less than 20m with SST's and having it make a good run, the recovered animals usually having a very wide but shallow wound channel and fragments of bullets throughout. I don't reload for long range hunting, but from a precision point of view:......... Berger. Berger, Berger, Berger. Lapua brass has a good reputation for case life, but so do others. In terms of powder there is an ADI equivalent for most other brands, hell ADI make a lot of powders for other companies which are then rebranded as their own. The only reason I say ADI is it is quicker to get if the importer runs out, and given the issues around shipping powder within NZ, and the state of the world in general; getting powder from Oz is going to be easier than Finland or the US.

Just my 2 cents, don't mean to be preachy. Cheers

I take a lot of people shooting on the local range besides strictly target shooters. Just about every "hunter" is surprised when they get on the 300 Yard line - "are you sure thats 287M??" and astonished at how far 600 yards (557M) is.

There is an old adage of advice to a young guy buying gear - seldom followed but true none the less. "Spend the least amount on your rifle, spend much more on the scope and more still on bino's" This is doubly so for longer range shooting, practically all modern rifles will comfortably "outshoot" their owners, and once there is a tiny bit of wind its doubly so.

To buy a scope on a budget I'd be looking for the best possible glass quality at the sacrifice of power - you'll be a lot better off with a really nice scope that goes up to 10X than a poorer one that goes to 20x or more. For example the glass in a Sightron S111 2.5-10x44 will piss all over a Leupy VX3 4.5-14 and be cheaper to boot. And because higher power happens to be flavour of the month just now there are some real bargains in the lower power stuff e.g. NF, Sightron, and Swaro's.

Ok mate here is my 2c
I have been shooting animals Deer/Goats mainly out to 800 odd yards for a few years now and all on doc land.


First of all, put that 300 away and learn to hit a 200mm plate at 800 yards consistently with your 308 using only the gear you are gonna carry in the field. When you get very good at this then go on to the 300 win mag.

I used to use a 300 win mag with 208 eldm bullets, its overkill for anything in NZ. So i mostly use 308/6.5 CM/ 270. I am now almost exclusively using my 270 loaded with berger 150gr VLDs


Good long range scope, not much out there for $1000. Maybe look at Sightron STAC 4-20x50.

Try get a second hand Leica 1200 rangefinder, they getting cheap now.

Carry a bipod, rear bag, rangefinder, wind meter 100% of the time and learn how to use them by shooting many 100s of rounds for practice.

If you cant hit a 200mm plate 100% of the time using only your gear you carry when hunting then you cannot be shooting deer at that range.


Shooting animals at long range is very tine consuming, recently i shot a Tahr at 665 yards and that took 7 hours to recover, and i shot 2 reds recently at 440 yards, that took 5 hours to recover.

Stuff takes very very long to recover if you are in doc land and shooting long range, this year ive passed up many animals between 500 and 800 yards due to the map saying they will take too long to recover, passed up several sika in the kawekas too recently.


You have to be able to spend a full day recover if needed, and you have to have the discipline to pass up deer that you cant recover in time or if the conditions for the the shot arent perfect.