Miss fire and stuck projectile.

I got some bulk hornady black 62gr fmj for cheap shooting practice for the kids....shot a bit of it and it seemed to go alright, a mate tried some in his norinco and had light strikes and failed to fire a number of rounds.
I didn't think to much of it it was working fine in my howa mini.
I pulled a few and poked a 65gr game king on top at the same BTOL as my handload and tested, they shot not as good as the handload but still plenty good enough for hunting so I pulled and loaded a hundred with the game king.
Since then I have had a few light strikes and fail to fire of the untouched fmj ammo and this evening a fail to fire and projectile stuck in the lands from the gameking load.


Attachment 166218Attachment 166219

Stupidly after waiting 10 seconds I ejected the case poured the powder out and threw it on the ground in disgust....I should have kept it to measure.
It took quite a knock with the cleaning rod to get back out.


Attachment 166220

I think what happened here is the game king I loaded was 10 thou off the lands....if that factory case had more than 10 thou head space it would both cause a light strike and jam the projectile in the lands.
I have a factory failed to fire somewhere here I think....I need to find it and compare headspace measurements with fired cases.

at least you didnt harm yourself or the rifle.....
if you want to look at worst case from here...you pull em all...pour powder into garden and start again....or you keep powder and devide it up by weight and load them all back up...BUT as you suspect they may be tiny bit short...might be best to sort that issue.ALTHOUGH...ifyou managed to jam it in rifling...shouldnt the primer have been hard against bolt face???? unless the primer strike was what moved whole shebang forward to jam projectile????

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

at least you didnt harm yourself or the rifle.....
if you want to look at worst case from here...you pull em all...pour powder into garden and start again....or you keep powder and devide it up by weight and load them all back up...BUT as you suspect they may be tiny bit short...might be best to sort that issue.ALTHOUGH...ifyou managed to jam it in rifling...shouldnt the primer have been hard against bolt face???? unless the primer strike was what moved whole shebang forward to jam projectile????

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Yea it highlights the importance of checking the barrel is clear after a missfire.
I think the primer strike moved the case forward more than the 10hou jump and stuck the projectile and also caused the light strike with the shoulder of the case not holding the primer back against the bolthead.

Found the factory misfire and had a measure up.

Attachment 166225
Measuring a mid point of the shoulder on the failed to fire factory round I get 1.471"
Measuring 20 unfired all but one were 1.486" and one was 1.485"
Measuring the same ammo fired in this rifle 20 cases all but one1.486" one 1.485"
The failed to fire case has a definite sizing mark like a double step in the shoulder like it has been hit with a body/bump die while loaded.
Attachment 166226

Has anyone seen anything like that in factory ammo before?

I didn't buy it new from a distributor so possibly the previous owner bumped the shoulder back of a few for whatever reason.

Either way it looks like I have a lot of cases to measure.

Greetings Vietnamcam,
My experience in working with low pressure loads is that the firing pin strike is enough to set the shoulder back enough result in slightly backed out primers. This would result in a shorter head to shoulder dimension on the case coming out of the chamber than when it went in. I think that your basic problem was a dud primer. I also think you are right in thinking that the projectile was jammed in the rifling due to the above and your minimal jump to the rifling. You may wish to seat the Game Kings a little deeper, at least for the first load. I use 1mm or .040" as a start jump and have seldom needed to change it. The deeper seating would prevent getting a repeat of your problem.
Regards Grandpamac.

I hadn't considered that possibility thanks @grandpamac .
I think I will still go threw and measure all the cases to satisfy my ocd tho.

+1 for grandpamacs experience

If that ammo was intended for chunkin' through an AR they might just have hard primers that sometimes require a few knocks to go off.

Back in 'the good old days' I had a few thousand of the Federal Match AR Small Rifle Primers that I tried in my Remington .300BLK once 'the good old days' ended - they worked well until I installed a Timney trigger and turned the pull weight almost all the way down.

Now I have to try three times to get them to go off. No issues with standard 205M primers though.

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

Check firing pin protrusion as well, if it's on the short side of tolerance it won't be helping your cause...

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How much should it be?

Are the cases loaded with a ball powder? Such can be a bit harder to ignite, even though it does sound like a primer issue in the first place.

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

I hadn't considered that possibility thanks @grandpamac .
I think I will still go threw and measure all the cases to satisfy my ocd tho.

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OCD is a good thing when handloading and should be aspired to. There are jokes in our family about OCD and some members so I am well equipped.
Regards Grandpamac.

Firing protrusion should be about .030" to .040" . From what you have said you have a case of short , headspaced , rounds . The extractor is not holding the case hard enough against the bolt face and has pushed the round forward.
One possible solution is to push the projectiles out so that the round is held against the bolt face remembering that this will increase pressure .

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

OCD is a good thing when handloading and should be aspired to. There are jokes in our family about OCD and some members so I am well equipped.
Regards Grandpamac.

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OCD? - Old Codgers Disease?:D

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Originally Posted by Tankd

Firing protrusion should be about .030" to .040" . From what you have said you have a case of short , headspaced , rounds . The extractor is not holding the case hard enough against the bolt face and has pushed the round forward.
One possible solution is to push the projectiles out so that the round is held against the bolt face remembering that this will increase pressure .

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Mmm a bit short. 45 - 55 thou is typical. For old military with bad headspace can be longer.
Roy F Dunlap (1950s so old) say 62 - 66 thou for large primers and 60 - 64 thou for small primers. These seem a tad long in the modern context.
IIRC I measured all my Barnards at 53 thou.

https://barnardconz.worldsecuresyste...in%20(003).pdf

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Mmm a bit short. 45 - 55 thou is typical. For old military with bad headspace can be longer.
Roy F Dunlap (1950s so old) say 62 - 66 thou for large primers and 60 - 64 thou for small primers. These seem a tad long in the modern context.
IIRC I measured all my Barnards at 53 thou.

https://barnardconz.worldsecuresyste...in%20(003).pdf

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That is interesting as my bolts are in the .030"-.040" range with an FR8 with a whopping .065" measured .mmmmmm

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Originally Posted by Finnwolf

OCD? - Old Codgers Disease?:D

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Greetings Finnwolf,
A tendency to OCD shows up in the young but only develops fully once we are old enough not to give a shit what others think. This development starts on or about your 60th birthday and is complete when you receive your first superannuation payment. Obviously these days OCD has branched into a number of conditions. I am just thankful that I am old enough to have dodged being diagnosed with any of them.
Regards Grandpamac.

Measured firing pin protusion ( by decocking the bolt and measuring how much stuck out...this is correct? ) at 0.057".
Yep it is a ball powder.
It fired the last 7 reloads with fed primers perfectly today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Measured firing pin protusion ( by decocking the bolt and measuring how much stuck out...this is correct? ) at 0.057".
Yep it is a ball powder.
It fired the last 7 reloads with fed primers perfectly today.

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Technically yes but from an engineering point of view no . What you are measuring is , uncocked , the firing pin at rest . What. the firing pin does when it flies forward is to go past the rest point and go until it hits the stop point i.e the point of no further travel .
So if you have a problem of not firing a round due to not igniting the primer the first port of call should be the round itself i.e headspace/primer seating / primer hardness etc. Then look to the bolt i.e clean it first & then polish the firing pin and internals , and then as a very last resort mess with the firing pin travel/protrusion.As an example someone ,who will remain anonymous, cocked up a calibre conversion to the point the chamber was about 0.010" to long . My solution in the end was to polish the firing pin / bolt internals to decrease lock time and increase firing pin protrusion( which is not straight forward) and now it works

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tankd

Technically yes but from an engineering point of view no . What you are measuring is , uncocked , the firing pin at rest . What. the firing pin does when it flies forward is to go past the rest point and go until it hits the stop point i.e the point of no further travel .
So if you have a problem of not firing a round due to not igniting the primer the first port of call should be the round itself i.e headspace/primer seating / primer hardness etc. Then look to the bolt i.e clean it first & then polish the firing pin and internals , and then as a very last resort mess with the firing pin travel/protrusion.As an example someone ,who will remain anonymous, cocked up a calibre conversion to the point the chamber was about 0.010" to long . My solution in the end was to polish the firing pin / bolt internals to decrease lock time and increase firing pin protrusion( which is not straight forward) and now it works

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Yep follow that.
As per opening post I think it is a headspace problem and or hard primers.
Rifle has never miss fired any other ammo.
Fired cases show varying primer strike depth but only in this ammo.
Will go threw and measure at least all I have loaded with the game king.

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this may...or may not be relevant but will type it anyway.
way back when I first got my vastava mini mauser 223 I had issues with the odd misfire...put it down to hard primers on norinco ammo (yellow box fmj,if you ever find it buy all you can get,awesome round) didnt have any issues with reloaded stuff and not all fmj rounds gave issues,a mate put me on to releasing bolt tension when not in use...eg twist end of bolt so spring is relaxed and fireing pin is in forward position...23 years later Ive not had a misfire since...I do it to all my centrefire rifles and it has added bonus of making bolts not fit in rifle untill you retwist them...effectively kiddie and burgler proofing them....