Seeing as Tactical Division has been dropped what is everyone planning to do? Keep the scope and step up to Open Div or swap for some iron's and go down to Standard?
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Seeing as Tactical Division has been dropped what is everyone planning to do? Keep the scope and step up to Open Div or swap for some iron's and go down to Standard?
Im staying in open, stick to what i know and thats optics. The open guys arnt that scary.
There was little to no difference between a tactical or open rifle anyway. Both used an optic, the open could have 2 optics but the tac could use offset irons anyway, much of a muchness, no distinct advantage either way. A bipod was the only real advantage open had and thats realy only stage dependant and can also turn into a hinderence mid stage.
So what you had was a rifle division with the same pool of shooters split into 2 differently named rifle divisions, it just watered down the competition.
Think i might have to get into this 3 gun eh
Yeah the difference between divisions becomes more apparent in pistol and shotgun though
Yes but youre not shooting against open pistols and open shotguns directly just by choosing to shoot open rifle. You shoot in whatever pistol division you want for your share of the 100% of that division, same goes for shotgun. At the end of it your combined score is out of 300 and youre either put into open or standard depending on your gun choices.
Was discussing this with 3 other members of our club that shoot 3 gun and nobody know anything about how this works. Needless to say though we are all sadly dropping Strike Eagles for BUISQuote:
Originally Posted by Towely
Its pretty straight foward, just grand tournament rules, pistol nz has a write up on its 3 gun page about how it works. The last few events have been run with these rules, once you shoot it it will become alot clearer.
If youre worried that your open rifle means your production pistol is being scored against full blown race pistols then dont worry, thats not how it works!
But shooting an Open rifle means my overall ranking will be in the Grand Tournament Open division? because I get placed in the highest division of my 3 firearms, not that I'm concerned about being in the running for a medal
Any open component will put you into overall open, however assuming there are enough competitors shooting different divisions to be offered you can mix and match so tactical is offered indirectly. I shoot an open rifle having an optic (or bipod/compensator over3" X 1") so I'll automatically be put in open overall; I shoot a standard shotgun (competing against other standard shotguns) ...it should be noted manual action shotgun (i.e. pump) is a thing however there generally aren't enough entries to run it as a division in itself; I shoot production pistol against other production shooters (to me production is a safe bet since it is so common, last nationals I think some guys came with classic guns and there weren't enough of them to have a classic division so they got placed into standard and boy does that make life hard) Then had respective percentages.
It should probably be noted that Tactical was never a real IPSC 3-gun division, don't get me wrong it is the division I used to shoot...it was accessible and frankly if you have an AR you want to put an optic on it but I had no intention of forking out the coin for an open pistol and shotgun. The grand tournament allows you to shoot close to tactical, remain competitive and stay within international rules. Whenever I try to explain it it always comes across more complicated than it actually is. So keep your razors on and go open overall.
I think the biggest farce in 3gun is the shotgun.
Competing against who has the most money and gadgets.
A standard or production pistol, a sensible tactical shotgun, hand fed and shot like shotguns were intended and a scoped rifle would be the norm in any military or police application. Where did it get so retarded?
I will still enjoy shooting 3 or multi gun but trying to keep up with the rules and stuff has me thinking I should have went to law school instead of soldier school. 😆
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Yes if you shoot open rifle you will be placed in open overall, no biggy though. If your other two guns arnt open then youre only battling it out head to head with other open shooters in the rifle disipline anyway. Overall your score will be in open but its how well you perform in all 3 disiplines that dictates how good your score is when its all combined and totaled up.
Any 1-4 power scope is just as good as any of the dedicated open rigs people are running. Its how you use it that counts.
Im guessing youre shooting the nationals?
Your decision to which rifle disipline to shoot may be made clearer depending on your answer to the following question/s..
"Can i guarantee 2 charlies minimum, on a standard ipsc paper target at 200mtrs, while on the clock and using open sights?"
or
"Can i guarantee alpha charlie minimum, on a swinger at 100mtrs while on the clock and using open sights?"
:XD:
When a group of us formed the Practical Shooting Institute (PSI) in 1983 there were only 3 divisions; pistol, rifle, and shotgun. The courses of fire varied greatly from natural terrain field courses with unknown targets, to short and sharp urban scenarios. If you wished to burden your gun with all sorts of extra gear the no one cared, you just 'run what you brung'. Pistol NZ (then the NZ Pistol Assn) obstructed us at every turn and our practical pistol courses were creative adaptations of existing approved matches until we succeeded in getting IPSC approved. Suddenly the NZPA wanted to be in control of this new sport (despite their years of actively trying to prevent it) and through devious means eventually won out. The PSI had only one major rule (apart from all the normal safety requirements) and that was that the competition would always run regardless of the weather conditions. We also introduced the holster training scheme which was basically free (I am badge #1). Now the holster courses are expensive and the sport has more rules and divisions than a communist government department. 'Real life' has been replaced by rampant bureacracy!
So, it looks like 3 gun has gone back to how it was before? Anyone going to change plans for SI 3 gun's with Grand Tournament being dropped?
Eh? So this thread is now mute?Quote:
Originally Posted by specweapon
I am lost😆
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Wheres the info on that one? @specweaponQuote:
Originally Posted by specweapon
3 gun
It would be cool if they did like a "service" division in 3 gun, where you shot "as issued" "weapons".
They pretty much do, you shoot production pistol or classic pistol, and standard shotgun (or pump shotgun) and open rifle (if you want optics on rifle) or standard rifle (iron sights on rifle). Done. Then youre placed into either open or standard overall, depending on rifle choice from the above options. How many different divisions do you guys want? Its already pretty straight foward.
An update to the 3 gun rules after a large review following the Nationals and last 2 tournaments.
Grand tournament does not seem to be working and we are not getting numbers that we have in the past. This is due to a few things but mainly the Grant tournament rules.
So after much discussion I think we have come up with a solution.
We are going to have 4 divisions
Open: Open rifle, Open shotgun, Open pistol
Standard: Standard rifle, Standard shotgun, Standard Pistol
NZ Modified: Open rifle, Standard or modified shotgun, Standard pistol
NZ Manual: Open rifle, Standard Manual Shotgun, Standard pistol
Open and Standard are international used divisions
Reasons for this change
•By doing this we will have an even playing field in each division.
•The firearms used will be under IPSC rules. See D5, 6 and 7 appendix for how each firearm needs to conform.
•New people can start in Manual with a production pistol, a pump shotgun and a rifle. This will encourage new people without costing them lots of money to get into it.
•Those that like to shoot rifle with an optic but don’t want to shoot open can you will be in Mod
•Production, Revolver and Classic pistols will be run as Standard division pistols with this system until such time as we get more people shooting the matches. We will then review more divisions for these pistols.
The next match for the South Islands on the 9th and 10th July 2016 will run by these rules.
You will be graded in these divisions from now on.
I want to make sure we are getting people shooting and driving 3gun. By doing this change I hope that those that have been put off by taking away tactical will come and shoot in these matches. Divisions will not be able to be gamed as such which has been a large issue for people.
I also want to lock in a yearly date for the nationals like IPSC pistol does so we all know and can book it in early.
If you have an idea on a date that would suit please let me know.
Any more issues then please email me at 3gunnz@gmail.com
Thanks Dean Albiston
PNZ 3 gun Section Director
Manual sounds like the division for me.
Thanks for posting that mate.
It looks like manual will have a big showing😆
Suits me.
Dunno if I will make the south island event as I am scheduled for work. Sucks as it is a 5 min drive for me to attend from home.
I may take leave but don't like my chances.
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So we got rid of Tactical division.... and now call it Modified division....
All jokes aside though I do like the change, although I have been shooting the last 2 months with my pistol setup for Open and Rifle with iron sights for Standard to get the practise, but I guess that's what they mean by divisions being gamed.
Now to strip my Czechmate back to standard and put my scope back on the AR
Just a note. We were told at our AGM the south Islands has been pushed out to the 18th and 19th as it clashed with another shoot.
I will try and confirm that as soon as I can.
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Better not have been, I just booked my flights. That being said if I knew they were making the changes to the rules I wouldn't have bothered coming down.
Don't quote me on it. It is still scheduled for the 9th and 10th on PNZ website.
It was definitely mentioned at the AGM tho that it was to be pushed out a week or intended to be.
We as a club did not know we were definitely hosting the event until recently.
I will find out asap.
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I have my concerns if these are the new rules. Until someone can elaborate more i can only make assumptions on how the scoring is going to work but it looks like the best open rifle shooter isnt going to be outright winner of open rifle as 2 other divisions are also using open rifle and they wont be directly scored against each other. Just looks like easy grades to me and a big watering down of the already low numbers involved in 3-gun with these new divisions. Also concerned to what they mean by production revolver and classic being scored as standard pistol? It must mean that you are being scored directly against standard guns? Since we arnt using grand tournament rules and all? Goodluck to the production shooters who find themselves pitted against a half decent standard shooter within your new division, youre going to get burnt with your minor scoring and lower mag capacity. Hilarious!
This is all my assumption until they make it all clear but just throwing it out there.
Would love to know what you think about it mufasa?
Correct me if I am wrong but you will be scored via your division no?
Open division shooters generally shoot open across the board and are allowed an extra optic and bipod on their rifle?
An open shooter by design should still win by aggregate anyway?
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Im assuming you are only scored against those within the division you enter as well r93. But 3 of those divisions have an open rifle element and another 3 have a standard pistol element and another 2 have a standard shotgun element. Under grand tournament all open rifle shooters would compete against each other, so they were basicaly battling it out and the winner of open rifle was the winner of open rifle (same goes for shotgun and pistol variants).
With the new change it seems you only compete against those in your new chosen division (assumption) so you have watered down the open rifle standard pistol and standard shotgun participants as they are now spread out accross other divisions. If you luck out you may enter a division that has all the good rifle shotgun and pistol shooters in different divisions to which you find yourself in and boom! easy GM grade earnt because you got to shoot against some of the lesser shooters?
Under grand tournament anyone could fit into a division and shoot with whatever they had brought with them. The new set doesnt cater for everyone.
Once again only assumption on my behalf but i cant see it working any other way unless all standard pistols (for example) are being shot against all other standard pistols for score, no matter what division the shooter is in (basicaly means that best standard pistol shooter wins standard pistol but that would be grand tournament scoring wouldnt it?)
Yeah I get ya now.
Not sure how I feel about it until I shoot a big match.
I just wanna shoot with what I have and that is an open rifle because of an optic. Standard pistol and shotgun. If I am up against other open shooters with the rifle so be it. I don't want to be up against open pistol and shotgun shooters because of one platform, so the new format for now, appeals to me.
Not sure how it will pan out in the long run but being relatively new to 3 gun I think they have catered for shooters set up the same as me and maybe that will gain more interest in the sport?
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I hear yah, but with your setup you were never up against open shotgun or open pistols under grand tournament anyway. You shot against the same equipment that you are using. It was an even playing field regardless. The greatest misconseption i see around grand tournament is that shooters simply dont understand how it works, and i reckon once they hear the word open class their judgement gets clouded and they think they are up against race guns when its just simply not the case.
Well im divisionless now anyway, unless i drop even more cash to get setup for it. But ive spent 9k on 3 gun gear in the last 12 months and i dont think i can be fucked spending any more. On the plus side its going to be cheaper for me not attending all these shoots. I dunno.
It is all a mind F#$k for me to be fair.
As are a lot of these events and rules.
There must be a lack of understanding and apprehension regarding the grand tournament rules.
I for one did not understand them fully.
When I chased sporting clays the best shot on their day won, and within reason it did not matter what equipment he or she had.
This game is not as clear cut for me, but it is a challange I look forward too.😆
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So. . . . With a pistol other than open needing to conform to the ipsc box dimensions, does that mean an end to the 141.25mm pistol mag max length?
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Specweapon, where did this info come from? Pm me if you want.
This is why I gave pistol shooting away after 20 years. I like to shoot not stand around waiting for an hour to shoot a 20 second stage and then wait some more.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
I always preferred 3 gun
With Sporting clays (even though I am only a casual shooter) you either hit it or miss, everyone can see that. There is no arguing or fannying about and not really too much of a gear race , you either break the clay............................... or not.
I can shoot 100 sporting clays targets on a Sunday before lunch you would be doing well to shoot 10 ipsc stages before lunch.
I gave sporting away because of cost and travel.
To shoot a 100 target match cost at least $120 bucks in entry and ammo.
Double that for an island shoot or nationals.
Living on the West Coast I had to travel everywhere but, just to tackle decent and challenging fields.
3 gun/pistol shooting is way cheaper for me and I can train to a decent standard without having to drive or fly across the country.
My sporting gun was almost worth more than all my ipsc gear combined.
I miss the shooting and social aspect of the sporting circut but do not miss the travel and cost.
I won plenty of events and prizes with a shotgun but haven't even managed a free lunch in IPSC.
Really enjoying the challenge of it for now.
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I just want to shoot shit.
Not into politics(but have to, to get anything done - over it), not wanting to really win (so I don't really care what grade/class i'm in). I just want people to run through stages, score and reset as quick as possible, so we can shoot more stages.
I do really like the social side though. However, should not get in the way of shooting on the day. ie shut up and patch.
Rule changes and date changes this close to a major comp is stupid and makes the overall management look the same.
However, I do agree with any changes to get more people shooting.
Wet Wednesday rant over.
I agree that getting more people shooting is a good move. But watering down the competition by adding more divisions to an already low shooter pool to make medals and awards even more meaningless is not the way to go.
Cost is probably the number 1 cause of low shooter turnout. Accomodation, travel, entry fee and ammunition to compete in a 2 or 3 day national event in another part of the country is a certainty. The exact costs involved per person will vary but they are always there and they arnt cheap when feeding 3 guns and traveling away from home.
Getting more people involved starts at club level and by running 3-gun shoots and getting the individual shooters to a point that they want to spend the money to go and compete in a national type event.
So why are we supposedly changing the divisions again?
lAgree fully. (but don't care about medals etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by Towely
Make the rules simple to understand, by this hopefully fast to shoot. Range requirements easy to meet with simple setup (ie low cost to local clubs - but leaving creativity available), so more ranges available., etc.,
I think something that splits the players in half - the gamers, rule readers etc.... in one half. The second half shooting what ever they like to shoot, and the only real measure is accuracy and maybe time. ie a F1 class and a club/fun grade.
Plus extra grades for old age and west coasters....
Yup, spot on. Club level is where to peak interest.
We have a radio advert on community radio for the club (it's free😆)
We are also trying to be more for the lack of a better word "Friendly" to people that show up out of the blue.
We have an induction spiel and everything.
We are thinking of advertising an open day as well.
Our club has around 50 members and only 5-6 are into IPSC and only a couple will travel to the bigger shoots.
We have heaps of Clint Eastwoods tho😆
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IPSC or those leather wearing folk, doesn't matter - just need to get people shooting and enjoying it.
There will always be people that want to win at all costs/requirements. They should be encouraged, as the top performance attracts sponsorship and media - hopefully in a positive light.
However, there are people that just like to shoot shit/appreciate guns/etc.., and we need to support these folk as well.
Yeah I agree but trying to get Bow legged to spend club funds on anything ipsc is bloody hard.
I am sure they only agreed to buy the Texas Star because it had the word TEXAS in it😆
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