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I remember a long thread about scope levels on the other forum.
Todd Hodnett also describes and stresses them as CRITCAL for longrange shooting in the Magpul Art of the Precision Rifle (or similar title) DVD.
I don't like them and can't see how such a level can work unless you have it in your field of view simultanously as you have your sight picture.
Here is a short film I made on the subject
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzX6DsJ5IrY
the one I suckered myself into buying flips out and can be seen when shooting, so not so bad... still probably just unnecessary bling as you say but there you go.
hey norway, watching your vids is very informative.and cool
think i remember you had a ballistics app vid once?? cant find it now which phone app was it ?? are you able to repost the link again ..
They work quite well with the Harris bipod when you can lock the swivel.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by stug
So you can judge well enough without one?
As the range increases being level would be more important?
I guess I find it boosts my confidence to have a quick look :)
A scope with a bubble level inside the sight picture would be the best. Do US optics make one of these?
On a different subject I see you tensioning your sling when firing prone. Do you find it helps stability?
Thanks for the video.
I wouldn't be without one myself for longrange shooting.
kj
They were not around when I first started out LR shooting apart from the odd one on fullbore app sights.
Never used one and havent had the need too so far.
Cant see why they wouldnt be a useful aid though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!
Trying to fix a training issue with a gadget.
It was this, horrible film!Quote:
Originally Posted by geezejonesy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awAZ7EfouZA
I use Lapua Ballistics (superbly easy to use, Lapua bullets closely match my Scenar bullets) and Shooter/ Applied Ballistics but these are not reliable when working metric and with minus values.
How do you control the cant when you lock the swivel?Quote:
Originally Posted by stug
Can you see the level and sight picture simultaneously?
Scope levels typically have about 1 degree resolution. How do you go about getting better than 0,5 degrees out of it? This is a typical/practical value for a scope level and very easy to beat just trusting your body.
I shoot of a sling very rarely and don't have a good enough sling technique to teach it. If you're refering to the bipod shooting, the sling occasionally gets in the way when I grip the buttstock and tightens. As it doesn't interfere with the shooting I don't do anything about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nzgunner
People buy a scope level and say things like "Whoa I noticed every time before I fired I'd check the level and it'd be way off"
because they have it mounted level to the top of the rifle, not the way they hold the rifle, no-one naturally holds a rifle exactly vertical, with the level you're trying to force yourself to and will be canting away from what the level says is flat... which doesn't matter as long as the reticle is leveled to the way that you hold the rifle, and as long as you have a consistent position
People notice themselves missing, go read on the internet about cant and scope levels, and decide that it must be that, because it's easier to buy a scope level than think "hmm it might be my inconsistent position, lack of natural point of aim, poor trigger control etc" and work on that
That's my theory anyway.
I reckon that's a pretty good theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
And cheers Norways for another awesome vid.
I use one... and lock the pod solid, I find most of the long hunting shots I take are not shot from flat ground so it is imposable lay behind the rifle the same each time to load the bipod the same each shot, so I set the level and free recoil shoot with no twist on the rifle, next to no hold to the rifle...so it is only lifted.. lever stays the same if its lifted up and down vertically, That way you can set up for a quick shot....rather than look for a better rest which is often not there... and then the animal is gone, most of what I shoot is not open Teriann so animals often pop out of site never to be seen again. Its not exactly easy to get level when its hard to see through the scope in a precarious position... You have to make sure parralex is right as often the eye alignment is not great.... Super long shots you need to position better but it seams to work the way I do it to 550 odd, I Don't take shots past that without good alignment with the scope :)
This is a bit odd really, identifying the benefit you may or may not get from an ACD is quite simple . A few bits from around the home and an hr on the hill will give you some very usefull information in real world terms. If anyones interested Ill post up the "how to" again.
Norway that's a nice video and the scenery is worth the download in itself but shows a very limited point of view with regard to a scope level.
If you hold your rifle on the Piss and level your scope then dialing will be "interesting" to say the least!Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2
I agree with lethal. Most of the shots I take are from uneven ground, certainly not the position you set yourself up to practice from. So before I take the shot I will set up the cant of the rifle using the level then lock it out with the podloc, Works well for me and eliminates one more variable.
Norway in your video you show that you can put the rifle in position very consistently but can you do it from multiple shooting positions? Also you have about 3 degrees of cant, are you happy to have that much?
Yes absolutely, well within what a scope level can give me.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.R
No I cant the rifle into me instead of leaning my head into my rifle. It makes for the most consistent shooting. The scope is however level/ without cant.
Your perception of cant works with input from both the vestibular sense and visual input, and they come to a consensus in telling your brain what is level. Learn to level the reticle after the 40-50.000 sensors you have in each ear and don't pay too much attention to what the visuals say you'll be fine, after all gravity is always straight down. However, this requires a fitted rifle so you get a cheekweld every time.
What I failed to express clearly enough was that I'm attacking the scope mounted, having-to-move-your-head levels. The ones you see simultaneously with your sightpicture is fine. However, you can do perfectly well without one.
Attachment 4986
This is my atempt at understanding why a scope level will help. the two RH theritical targets are the same target at the same range.
When dialing the windage and elevation on the scope turret you are moving the x hair to be 'zero' at the intended range. no vertical or horozonatal reference point needed.
When using hold over you need the reticle 'as a refrence point' level to gain an accurate point of aim. Any cant in the refrence point will compound your point of impact with vertical from gravity.
Think of a grid of dots (horus reticle for example) with a elevation and windage hold over point, hold it level over a target, then rotate it around the x hair when using the same hold over on the target and you will see what I mean.
I think I have just confused myself
thoughts and comments welcome. I have the MAGPUL precision rifle dvd and understand it better from watching the dvd.
I don't think anyone thinks its not important to hold the scope (not necessarily rifle) level to the earth (gravity not the ground shape) Norway is just saying you dont need a level to do it...
I like to use a level as I find it hard in some of the spots to hold it level while half laying down a hill with bad cheek weild and not a great position on the scope.
I Have no problem if you have a good area to lay behind the rifle
But Norway has 3 degrees of cant when he takes a shot, i have close to zero when using my level. What are we saying is an acceptable level of cant? Norway obviously docent have any problem hitting his target.
It is not the sights but the rifle that cants. My sights are level.
Look at the olympic shooters. "Everyone" cants the RIFLE. I'll try and post some pics later.
I must be missing something because the inclinometer is on the scope not the rifle in your video and it is at 3 degrees when you fire.
As the video states: It is not calibrated.
I see. So was the scope actually level when you fired? I guess you don't know with out a device on there to check.
Yes Anschutz for example have their top of the line diopter sights able to be canted to compensate for the cant the shooter desires the rifle to assume. The sights are then canted to maintain verticle and horizontal elevation/windage adjustments. The rifle is then held in a repeatable postion each time by a spirit level in the front foresight tube (also adjustable for cant). This level is adjustable to suit the cant. So the whole rifle can be at a severe cant but the sights back and front are "plumb" as is the target being shot at. Any adjustement made to the rear sight will be truelly vertical or horizontal. They are shooting at fixed known ranges. All this is a far cry from being out in the sticks I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norway
Yes so the scope must be canted on the rifle then, so at some point you must put a level on the scope while you are holding the rifle in its firing position and set the scope level.
In my case I would never manage to hold the rifle in the same position every time in some of the positions I shoot from in the field. So I feel a ACD is necessary for me.
I have a Horus bubble level on the left side of my scope. I shoot with both eyes open so its quick to focus on the level to check if the scope is plumb. I only usually use it for 600 plus meters where you have a little more time to take the shot. I guess the most important part is consistency. Maybe my form isn't the best...I need all the help I can get :)
Id say any slight cant without using an ACD would only be noticeable at ranges beyond 6-700m TBF. If I was missing at either 10, 2, 4 and 8 o'clock consistently at range I would consider getting one as weapon cant may be the problem.
If I miss it is usually a bad wind call or high and low due to incorrect data or stock position. I have never considered cant as an issue personally.
Is their a formula to this cant thing, like so many degrees makes the bullet go here, Im not sure If I made my self clear sorry.
Nutt behind the butt! if you missed.......... YOU missed!
Yes I did know. That is the whole point of this post about the vestibular sense. Gravity is by default straight down; drop an item and it will always fall straight down.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.R
What I repeatedly fail to communicate properly is this
What I fail to identify properly is that I'm attacking the scope levels were you have to move your head to see it - those are nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by leathel
The scope levels that you can see simultaneously with your sight picture is ok; they do the job.
But I also say that you don't NEED one of these to shot properly at LR. Building position is as Gimp says a training issue, regardless of terrain, angle or position.
There are three ways of asserting consistency in your hold; crosshairs and scope levels is relevant to this discussion. Scope level is a good tool for checking consistency, but you need to have the right model and place it somewhere you can see it. AND you can do very well without one.
http://kammeret.no/bilder/albums/use..._rifle_020.JPG
As for rifle cant, that is no problem. It is better to bring a rifle into a straight head than bringing the head to a straight rifle. The below pictures are all olympic medalists. Fixed range as some say, but amongst the most technically proficient position builders in the world and that is the part that is relevant regardless of what range/ position you shoot from.
http://kammeret.no/bilder/albums/use..._rifle_014.JPG
http://kammeret.no/bilder/albums/use..._rifle_011.JPG
http://kammeret.no/bilder/albums/use..._rifle_008.JPG
http://kammeret.no/bilder/albums/use..._rifle_006.JPG
Funny looking at these small bore shooter pics because former nz small bore lady shooter ruth mcneir from good old Dannevirke has a cant as dose her former nz smallbore shooter husband Robbie and they say the same thing aslong as its always the same every shot.And silly question but dose a projectile no up from down??
Can you get rifles with a twist in the butt so the whole gun isnt canted ?
Why? Professional shooters don't..Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
So that the gun isnt canted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
Yes, it’s a ratio i.e. distance the scope is mounted above the bore (the rifles bore is the pivot point just like a see-saw) V's the amount the bullet has dropped for the given range your target is at.
i.e.
Scope height above bore = 1.5''
Drop at 1000y = 230''
Therefore if your scope was 1mm off perfect alignment to the right, the cant would cause the following error to the left
[Ratio (230''/1.5'')] x1mm off centre (to the right) = Impact will be 153'' left of your aiming point
That in anyone’s language is a big miss!
kj
Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?
Canting your scope to the rifle and holding the scope level and canting a level scope/rifle are two completely different things.
If for whatever reason you liked to hold your rifle at 45 degrees and leveled your scope like that, then if your scope was lets say 2" over the center of the bore then it would also be 2" left or right of the bore, Zeroed at 100y at 200y it would be 2" left or right and so on depending on your cant. Due to the scope and the bore being off set.
Norway 3 degrees is piss all but is it something you allow for? or use a program to compensate for?
