Scope levels - do they work?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toby

Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?

---

Yes.

The bore is the pivot point (the constant) the bullet doesn't shoot at an angle, in simplified terms it still comes out and falls towards the earth in the vertical plane effected by gravity no matter what angle the rifle is on. What does change by canting the rifle is you aiming point will pivot with the canted rifle, so your aiming point will not align with where the bullet will actually hit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Canting your scope to the rifle and holding the scope level and canting a level scope/rifle are two completely different things.

If for whatever reason you liked to hold your rifle at 45 degrees and leveled your scope like that, then if your scope was lets say 2" over the center of the bore then it would also be 2" left or right of the bore, Zeroed at 100y at 200y it would be 2" left or right and so on depending on your cant. Due to the scope and the bore being off set.

Norway 3 degrees is piss all but is it something you allow for? or use a program to compensate for?

---

Yes they are two different things; but the topic of rifle cant or using a level to help reduce the effects of cant is what we are really talking about, this is the one that will have an effect on accuracy.

Norway didn't tare his digital level so the 3' is a red hearing - what is important is the 0.5' accuracy he showed that is possible to get from the bubble level. If we do some quick maths on what effect 0.5' has at 1000y then the bubble level would keep you within +1.2'' at 1000y...that’s pretty dam good for a $50 item.

Now when shooting from shitty positions on lumpy ground with poor check weld and across a steep slope, then from my experience I've found that every time I check my level before taking the shot, my first estiamte is waaaay off level. A quick re-level with my ACD and lock in the bi-pod and then I can take the shot with more confidence of hitting the target.

kj

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toby

Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kimjon

Yes, it’s a ratio i.e. distance the scope is mounted above the bore (the rifles bore is the pivot point just like a see-saw) V's the amount the bullet has dropped for the given range your target is at.

i.e.

Scope height above bore = 1.5''
Drop at 1000y = 230''

Therefore if your scope was 1mm off perfect alignment to the right, the cant would cause the following error to the left

[Ratio (230''/1.5'')] x1mm off centre (to the right) = Impact will be 153'' left of your aiming point

That in anyone’s language is a big miss!

kj

---

Opps - Sorry guys I got my units mixed up on this one (mm v's inches) dam i hate working between imperial and metric.

But the same ratio applies and 154mm error for a minor cant of 1mm at the shooters end is still the difference between a kill and a gut shot.

kj

Kimjon that"s my take on it as well after some actual testing in a varrity of positions. The only question is can your vestiublar sences be relied upon in all situations the simple answer for me personally was no definatly not.
Noway Iv lost count of the threads you've posted in regarding scope levels. Seems like a whole lot of effort for a $50. item .I'm wondering did you get chased up a tree buy a scope level when you where young? Or maybe a scope level stole your girl friend?

Those pictures of the competitive shooters showing cant aren't relevant as their rifles are zeroed for one known specific range anyway so any variance from centre is only going to happen if they changed ranges without adjusting. For what you guys are saying here if a gun is always shot canted, it must be relevant, especially the further out you shoot from the rifles true zeroed range.

I surrender. :yaeh am not durnk:
I simply fail to present the message correctly. It's all part pf my general "skill before gear" theme.

Here, enjoy the next segment of building position instead: Natural point of aim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbejnrp7FSY

Norway, would you let a builder build you a house with no level? Just using his sence of level? I sure wouldn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L.R

Norway, would you let a builder build you a house with no level? Just using his sence of level? I sure wouldn't.

---

Plumber that did my house didn't own a level...

And how does it look?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zimmer

Plumber that did my house didn't own a level...

---

Water finds its own level Zimmer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L.R

And how does it look?

---

He proved the theory that water will not run uphill. Oh by the way I am from the ACD camp.

That was a very intereting thread. I learnt a few things and great information for new shooters to read.
I was given some good advice the other day about natural point of aim. When going prone the first thing to do is to look at the target as you lay down. Rather than finding a comfy spot to lay down then acquiring the target. A good place to start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L.R

Norway, would you let a builder build you a house with no level? Just using his sence of level? I sure wouldn't.

---

Sorry, you are com-plet-ely missing the point.
A builder doesn't use a cheekweld or a rested position.

This is by far the single most blog episode were I have so thoroughly failed to get the message across :ORLY:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norway

Sorry, you are com-plet-ely missing the point.
A builder doesn't use a cheekweld or a rested position.

This is by far the single most blog episode were I have so thoroughly failed to get the message across :ORLY:

---

I caught your drift Norway.
They may be handy bits of kit, but you dont need one to be successful.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

i have a scope level that folds out so you can see it and the cross hair in your scope at the same time.
i didnt like it because even though you can get it in the same place every time it just didnt seem right as its just wierd trying to get the bubble centre when your not right behind it, instead your off to the side.
so iv taken it off, and i spend more time trying to read the wind instead.

i get what norway is saying... the moment you have the bubble level (the type thats on the centre of the scope) whats to say it didnt move when you shift your focus to the cross hair. instead you would probabley be better off trusting your natural sences.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tui_man2

Don't know why I'm on here on the wall home but right, not don't know down from us, but this bugs will do:p work dos:cool:

sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tui_man2

Mate!!! Drive? Jew in door I can hardly walk let almost drive!!! So 2 legs for me I'll be sweet after the 5ish kook home:thumbup:

sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2

---

:yaeh am not durnk: haha, on the tui.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norway

This is by far the single most blog episode were I have so thoroughly failed to get the message across :ORLY:

---

I think most here understand the point your are making but myself and it seems a few others just don't agree with it. You claim that our vestibular scenses will allow us to identify verticle anywhere in any position therefore not needing the information a simple level can give?. The problem is when determining verticel the brain will use all the information from any of the body's senses it can not just the vestibular and as is the case with many human factors it can be misled. Setting up on a nice level position, a familar spot Iv used befor or any postion that gives me something in the site picture to reference off and I will normally be close enough without relying on a level. Lying on a side slope and looking up at 30 degrees at a animal standing on a slope and I can be long way off. Thats I as in me personally. My human scenses will no doubt vary from other humans.
I have it now, you had a scope level but it turned out to be a lesbian and left you for another lesbian scope level?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sneeze

[...] not needing [...]

---

Not critical for a hit. I tried to stress that word in the first post.

Position, regardless of terrain and situation, is a matter of training. A level can be a nice tool, but not an absolute necessity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snala

Those pictures of the competitive shooters showing cant aren't relevant as their rifles are zeroed for one known specific range anyway so any variance from centre is only going to happen if they changed ranges without adjusting. For what you guys are saying here if a gun is always shot canted, it must be relevant, especially the further out you shoot from the rifles true zeroed range.

---

The rifle can be canted but the scope cant.... rifle canted & the scope not gets the bullets running parallel but to one side very slightly.... you dont have to adjust for it you just aim for it and if its only a few degrees it will be sweet FA so you don't even need to aim for it ... The error comes in with dialing and if scope is set right the dialing will align with gravity :)

Now to watch the next video :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tui_man2

Dave!!!!:p

sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2

---

Drunk and disorderly
Indecent exposure
graftity using obscene language.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norway

Not critical for a hit. I tried to stress that word in the first post.

Position, regardless of terrain and situation, is a matter of training. A level can be a nice tool, but not an absolute necessity.

---

"Critital for a hit" will depend on the amount of cant errror ,target size and elevation dialed. A few things I use may not be "critcel for a hit" but they help a little in some situations so Ill keep them till I find a better way. Seems we are starting to go in circles now.

Todd Hodnett raises scope levels to unreal importance in order to make money - he basically says you'll miss if you dont have a scope level.

I detest that.
AND for a skilled shooter "level" is a non-issue. I was simply looked into the discrepancy between the rumoured importance of scope levels and the LR results I've been able to firsthand see from shoters doing any range/angle/position and having absolutely no problem nailing it despite no scope level bubble thingie. What makes this possible is the vestibular sense and training.

By all means, be happy with your level.

Might want to edit my shit out:rolleyes:

I think level is needed for 600m plus stuff in hunting situation, I also use 1 in smallbore rifle shooting, like others said we zero an shoot at set ranges an get sighters at different ranges, at 50m it's unlimited I have to click on couple side ways form 25m to 50m

sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2

Don't work on any of my shit today Abe!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norway

Todd Hodnett raises scope levels to unreal importance in order to make money - he basically says you'll miss if you dont have a scope level.

I detest that.
AND for a skilled shooter "level" is a non-issue. I was simply looked into the discrepancy between the rumoured importance of scope levels and the LR results I've been able to firsthand see from shoters doing any range/angle/position and having absolutely no problem nailing it despite no scope level bubble thingie. What makes this possible is the vestibular sense and training.

By all means, be happy with your level.

---

:D Its not something I covert at all, I actually don't like the look of them on a scope and I wont tell anyone to get one but from an individual point it dosn't need to be an opinion based decision, its easy to test measure and calculate.You dont even have to burn any ammo.

Hey guys sorry to bring up an old topic, just trying to set up my first rifle to learn to dial my shots and reading thru old posts .
I'm just not sure about canting my rifle to the scope . I under stand that you must have the scope reticle vertical other wise when you dial elevation you will dial off to the side and if the rifle is canted gravity only affects the bullet vertically so your elevation would be similar. And your scope is parallel to the bore so when you have scope zeroed at 100y you would have to have some windage dialed in, because the bullet isnt exiting directly inline with the relicle. So then when you wind up your elevation for 600y wouldn't you need to change your windage adjustment aswell because you would have gone from having say .25 of an inch windage to 3inchs and then when you are using a inclined base or rings like a 20 Moa base wouldn't your windage be off even more because of a greater bore to scope misalignment. You have now built in for eg if your rifle was canted 45degrees 10moa windage to the left.
Sorry if its a bit confusing.

Thanks for your help.

Welcome rusl

Welcome.
Yep scope levels do work if set up correctly.
The question is do you actually need one,?

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Welcome.
Yep scope levels do work if set up correctly.
The question is do you actually need one,?

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

---

Last few times we went smashing gongs I never used mine. Folded it out once out of curiousity to find I was already more or less bang on. Cheap enough though.

Thanks guys
Yip not sure if you need a level or not that's really up to the shooter.
The question I pose is if the rifle is canted as Norway suggests is proper form and the scope is levelled in this position so the bore is not vertical with the cross hairs, when I zero my rifle at 100y then dial up to 600y will my windage dope still be correct?
I drew some birds eye views and projected the bullets path with the sight line and it doesn't work out.
Or am I missing something really obvious?
Cheers.

so long as your scope line is in perfect line with the barrel you'll be fine, with a canted base/rings it will throw it out.

If you have a canted base the cross hair should be in line with the barrel.

Well that's my theory, never experimented with the theory but would be easily tested.

Thanks savage1 that's exactly what I was thinking. Just thought I may have missed something.

If your scope is setup with the reticule lined up square to the barrel and you cant the rifle you will see that the horizontal cross hair is not level unless you have a problem with your eyes which is not likely, I've shot F class since it started and never needed a bubble level
out to 1000 yrds it's just something else to get stuffed up. Robert.

400m plus and you are starting to need one...

Here is a little trick to see how good you are without one... Get a 1m high sheet of card board and draw a straight line top to bottom.... mark a point 10cm up from the bottom. Use a spirit level and set the board up at 100m with the line absolutely vertical. Assuming you are zeroed at 100m, put 3 rounds on the bottom mark then adjust the elevation 8 mills up then repeat the 3 rounds while targeting the bottom mark.

I bet you cannot get the same size group, exactly on the line, exactly 80 cm above the first group, if you do not have a cant level...

People who say you dont need a scope level propably dont shoot far enough to realise you need one in my opinion. It is part of your shooting system, on its own if you dont have a decent system then a bubble wont help you

I was reading Bryan Litz’s book last night on this
And based on a 3 degree cant the bullet would move left or right

A 243 vs 308 and yards/inches

At 300 1 and 1.4
At 500 3.1 and 4.4
At 900 12.4 and 18.5

The difference is the trajectory of the 308 vs 243 being flatter

I remember years ago some fat fucker at hunting and fisting tower junction I think his name was Tom I used to see him in the magazines for goose shooting, anyway I went in there for them to mount a scope for me with there levels and he was telling me he sees no reason why it has to be bang in level and that he shoots a 270wsm so he would know rah rah rah, I don’t think I’ve ever been in again since


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk