Thread: Shooting: The sport all of us enjoy - do your part in preserving the ability to do so

Originally Posted by Savage1

@Danger Mouse
Cahill is not a police officer anymore so complaining to the IPCA is pointless. I'm betting it wasn't an intentional lie at all, more likely he doesn't know much about it.

Reading some of the posts on here I must say that we come across as arrogant and unreasonable, too much emotion and exaggeration. Exactly which points are bad? Why are they bad? And think of how your responses will look to the average non firearm user.

And yeah, where is Dougie?

NZ police association needs to update its web site in that case. Thanks for the clarification.

Regarding the rest of your post, I think this is due to the increasing restrictions for no benefit over the last 15 years, and the people introducing these restrictions dont have a clear understanding of the current legislation. Its pretty poor form to recommend change to something that they havent even bothered to understand.

The behavior of nz police in regards to policy over riding law isnt acceptable. Are they (or yourself) surprised at the increase in cynicism and change in attitude to nz police as a result? If you make unreasonable demands of me and demand compromise from me, but never compromise yourself, dont expect me to smile and say everything is good.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Cahill is not a police officer anymore so complaining to the IPCA is pointless. I'm betting it wasn't an intentional lie at all, more likely he doesn't know much about it.

@Savage1 I believe it was fully intentional, this is not the first time he has done this. Remember the 20,000 guns stolen each year...??? And that was broadcast on air!!

Originally Posted by Savage1

Reading some of the posts on here I must say that we come across as arrogant and unreasonable, too much emotion and exaggeration.

Well actually the points you've made right here ^^^ is exactly how the police are behaving, no question about it. Look how they start their flaming submission: "There are too many firearms, and too many of the wrong type, in the wrong hands" Key word there is wrong type. Given their ultra-vires behavior the last 18 months that could mean anything. To add, just look how the police word the start of the arms code, "firearm ownership in NZ is a privilege, not a right" This is so backwards & in my opinion - arrogant.

Firearm ownership in NZ is a right. Full stop.

You speak as if the police are not being arrogant or unreasonable but that's exactly how they have come across to law-abiding fit & proper persons!

Originally Posted by Savage1

Exactly which points are bad? Why are they bad? And think of how your responses will look to the average non firearm user.

As mentioned before, all of it. We are not "gaming" the system and that was a blatant lie in the police's submission. Will you defend your organizations lies??

Guys a think we need to let @Savage1 and others stay quiet, this whole situation is a sticky mess. I know for a fact that police officers aren't allowed to bring the organisation into disrepute. How can he answer these questions without putting his job on the line???

Would you be willing to risk your career over a) this forum b) recomendations that may not come to fruition and c) changing peoples ideas bout firearm ownership (some pig headed ignorant people on this forum [not meaning anyone individually])

We know they follow this forum so it wouldn't take much now would it.....

Originally Posted by 223nut

Guys a think we need to let @Savage1 and others stay quiet, this whole situation is a sticky mess. I know for a fact that police officers aren't allowed to bring the organisation into disrepute. How can he answer these questions without putting his job on the line???

Would you be willing to risk your career over a) this forum b) recomendations that may not come to fruition and c) changing peoples ideas bout firearm ownership (some pig headed ignorant people on this forum [not meaning anyone individually])

We know they follow this forum so it wouldn't take much now would it.....

I actually appreciate the input from guys like savage. I think its important to distinguish between front line officers, and those rolling out 'policy' and advocating restrictions. They arent the same.

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

I think its important to distinguish between front line officers, and those rolling out 'policy' and advocating restrictions. They arent the same.

Very true,

Agree, the Police staff in Canterbury have been awesome to deal with, pity Head Office seem to have it in for firearms owners.

Whilst I don't agree with everything savage1 says - I'd certainly agree with his right to say it.

As an aside, my recent dealings with the arms officer have been pretty good - it took me just over a week to get an import permit for a Zhukov stock for my AK, so things are still capable of being processed in a timely manner. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

@Savage1 I believe it was fully intentional, this is not the first time he has done this. Remember the 20,000 guns stolen each year...??? And that was broadcast on air!!



Well actually the points you've made right here ^^^ is exactly how the police are behaving, no question about it. Look how they start their flaming submission: "There are too many firearms, and too many of the wrong type, in the wrong hands" Key word there is wrong type. Given their ultra-vires behavior the last 18 months that could mean anything. To add, just look how the police word the start of the arms code, "firearm ownership in NZ is a privilege, not a right" This is so backwards & in my opinion - arrogant.

Firearm ownership in NZ is a right. Full stop.

You speak as if the police are not being arrogant or unreasonable but that's exactly how they have come across to law-abiding fit & proper persons!



As mentioned before, all of it. We are not "gaming" the system and that was a blatant lie in the police's submission. Will you defend your organizations lies??

You need to learn the difference between the Police Association and the NZ Police.

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true, if he was going to intentionally lie I'd expect them to be of more significance and harder to check.

What's incorrect about the opening statement? I believe there is too many firearms in the wrong hands, don't you? Surely you're not angry because you didn't like the wording which is pretty clear it's about the wrong people having them? I believe firearm ownership is a privilege, I realise that it can be argued either way but it can be taken away and is not granted at birth and is not available to all people and it's certainly not listed in the Bill of Rights Act. But this is just my opinion.

By saying that all of the submission is bad makes you appear to have a chip on your shoulder and doesn't look good when trying to explain what you disagree with to other people. This post of yours is exactly what I'm talking about, it looks irrational and unreasonable.

"gaming the system" wasn't a lie at all, certainly not a blatant one. "Gaming" is a matter of subjective opinion and they probably aren't far off the mark, whether you or I agree or not.

I am going to lock and clean up this thread, or maybe just clean it up I haven't decided

I realise sometimes some of us need a place to vent and an audience to vent to, however for a thread that is in the public eye, some of us, not doubt with good conviction have let our emotions run away to the point that the thread makes all of us look like exactly what the anti public firearms ownership crowd want to believe we are.

Stop with the boorishness and I'll just clean it up
If anyone at all uses the c word or attacks another member in this thread again I will delete it.

Latest video address from NZ First MPs Ron Mark and Richard Prosser:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...12881728924623

You don't need to "do" Facebook to be able to view the video.

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@Savage1

I would humbly offer that there are people who do agree with PARTS of the select committee report. However people are cagey about saying that because in submissions to parliament or politicians such a statement is often taken as agreement with the document at hand. As such people will often reject a report like this in its entirety so as not to be seen supporting it or giving anyone a chance to skew their response.

Everything said in that video is 100% true. The police will never let up in their effort to use sneaky, underhanded and ultra vires tactics to further encroach on the rights of law-abiding to citizens to legally possess and use firearms. They've been doing this since 1920 - every few years owning or wanting to own a firearm becomes more and more onerous. The evidence that they do this is clear as a bell to those of us that have been following this for a long time.

No offence intended against you personally savage1 - we've met before and we've corresponded a couple of times via PM. You seem like a good bloke but I really find it difficult to respect your organisation when your superiors are playing power games with our interests, without our involvement behind the scenes and then lying to our faces that it's all going to be okay and it's not going to affect us.

/ends

Originally Posted by Ryan

Everything said in that video is 100% true. The police will never let up in their effort to use sneaky, underhanded and ultra vires tactics to further encroach on the rights of law-abiding to citizens to legally possess and use firearms. They've been doing this since 1920 - every few years owning or wanting to own a firearm becomes more and more onerous. The evidence that they do this is clear as a bell to those of us that have been following this for a long time.

No offence intended against you personally savage1 - we've met before and we've corresponded a couple of times via PM. You seem like a good bloke but I really find it difficult to respect your organisation when your superiors are playing power games with our interests, without our involvement behind the scenes and then lying to our faces that it's all going to be okay and it's not going to affect us.

/ends

Its the common theme of the rich, the politicians and police HQ. Just lie.

https://www.facebook.com/RonMarkMP/v...5599608986165/

Ron Marks latest update.

I'll happily put my hand up in support of better security around ammo storage and cautiously support phasing in better A-cat safe requirements over time but overall they've royally screwed up the whole MSSA classification and are looking like doing the same for overall length of MSSAs with folding /collapsible stocks

Police hold inaccurate records of my pistols so how can I trust them to get it right with full registration? It's not just as a FAL owner that I oppose full registration, it's as a taxpayer I despair of the NZP doing the right thing with IT projects after INCIS and their current poor record keeping

I can see a lot of my hard-earned getting flushed down the toilet when it has been tried before (Canada) and shown to not work

In the UK it is extremely difficult for your average punter to get a FAL and the gangs are happily running around with Czech submachine guns because they are criminals



It's not a firearms thing, it's watching people going the wrong way and charging me to do it that gets my goat