I know, you know! Seems the police,army and Air Force all need new firearm security? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sideshow
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I know, you know! Seems the police,army and Air Force all need new firearm security? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sideshow
Trout season!Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
:D
Just finished reading the below thread nicely written! Now is the time to act guys get stuck in:yuush:
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...ll-arms-34435/
Here's an example from South Africa as to what could happen:
"Raids" on expired firearm licence owners
Haven't seen this posted yet, but from GOSA facebook page (and I know a couple of other organisations have emailed it out:
Paul Oxley
15 hrs
It is now confirmed that the Western Cape SAPS are acting on instructions to raid both firearm owners who have expired licences, and firearm dealers.
Today the Foundation for the Defence of Democracy, acting for a large number of dealers initiated action against the specific officers involved in the harassment and intimidation of a number of dealers.
GOSA can advise that, on the face of it, any action against an individual based solely on an expired licence is ultra vires (unlawful), and a direct contravention of the commitment given by SAPS to the High Court. The SAPS actions almost certainly rise to the level of contempt of court.
Whilst we can never advise that a member confronted by a SAPS member, who seems to be in possession of a search warrant, should resist the orders of that officer, we would advise that you immediately contact the Foundation for the Defence of Democracy.
You can contact them by email at issueswithcfr@gmail.com or in emergency via our 24hr callcentre on 08 61 10 61 90.
Perhaps he could go to 'Stralia he might like the gun laws over there better....I'm sure someone will start a give-a-little page to help fund his relocation
I'll chip in a size 11 boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by bolty
Now now chaps everyone entitled to their opinions we cant always agree on everything. That's what makes us civilised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husky1600
Banning people for their opinions makes us no better than North Korea.
@Danger Mouse
Cahill is not a police officer anymore so complaining to the IPCA is pointless. I'm betting it wasn't an intentional lie at all, more likely he doesn't know much about it.
Reading some of the posts on here I must say that we come across as arrogant and unreasonable, too much emotion and exaggeration. Exactly which points are bad? Why are they bad? And think of how your responses will look to the average non firearm user.
OJR
But he should - he is representing your organisation. It's like Dr Nick Riviera from the Simpsons fronting a medical convention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
All the points are bad. Here's why:Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...ll-arms-34435/
I've sent a few emails off to MP's,one of the suggestions I made was,
Stop the burglars & you stop opportunist theft off firearms. How do you do this, well one way would to be increase the penalties for firearm theft to discourage them, if a burglar knows they will get 5 years for stealing a rifle vs community service for stealing a TV etc. then hopefully they will think twice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
NZ police association needs to update its web site in that case. Thanks for the clarification.
Regarding the rest of your post, I think this is due to the increasing restrictions for no benefit over the last 15 years, and the people introducing these restrictions dont have a clear understanding of the current legislation. Its pretty poor form to recommend change to something that they havent even bothered to understand.
The behavior of nz police in regards to policy over riding law isnt acceptable. Are they (or yourself) surprised at the increase in cynicism and change in attitude to nz police as a result? If you make unreasonable demands of me and demand compromise from me, but never compromise yourself, dont expect me to smile and say everything is good.
@Savage1 I believe it was fully intentional, this is not the first time he has done this. Remember the 20,000 guns stolen each year...??? And that was broadcast on air!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
Well actually the points you've made right here ^^^ is exactly how the police are behaving, no question about it. Look how they start their flaming submission: "There are too many firearms, and too many of the wrong type, in the wrong hands" Key word there is wrong type. Given their ultra-vires behavior the last 18 months that could mean anything. To add, just look how the police word the start of the arms code, "firearm ownership in NZ is a privilege, not a right" This is so backwards & in my opinion - arrogant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
Firearm ownership in NZ is a right. Full stop.
You speak as if the police are not being arrogant or unreasonable but that's exactly how they have come across to law-abiding fit & proper persons!
As mentioned before, all of it. We are not "gaming" the system and that was a blatant lie in the police's submission. Will you defend your organizations lies??Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
Guys a think we need to let @Savage1 and others stay quiet, this whole situation is a sticky mess. I know for a fact that police officers aren't allowed to bring the organisation into disrepute. How can he answer these questions without putting his job on the line???
Would you be willing to risk your career over a) this forum b) recomendations that may not come to fruition and c) changing peoples ideas bout firearm ownership (some pig headed ignorant people on this forum [not meaning anyone individually])
We know they follow this forum so it wouldn't take much now would it.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by 223nut
I actually appreciate the input from guys like savage. I think its important to distinguish between front line officers, and those rolling out 'policy' and advocating restrictions. They arent the same.
Very true,Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Mouse
Agree, the Police staff in Canterbury have been awesome to deal with, pity Head Office seem to have it in for firearms owners.
Whilst I don't agree with everything savage1 says - I'd certainly agree with his right to say it.
As an aside, my recent dealings with the arms officer have been pretty good - it took me just over a week to get an import permit for a Zhukov stock for my AK, so things are still capable of being processed in a timely manner. YMMV.
You need to learn the difference between the Police Association and the NZ Police.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
Just because you believe something doesn't make it true, if he was going to intentionally lie I'd expect them to be of more significance and harder to check.
What's incorrect about the opening statement? I believe there is too many firearms in the wrong hands, don't you? Surely you're not angry because you didn't like the wording which is pretty clear it's about the wrong people having them? I believe firearm ownership is a privilege, I realise that it can be argued either way but it can be taken away and is not granted at birth and is not available to all people and it's certainly not listed in the Bill of Rights Act. But this is just my opinion.
By saying that all of the submission is bad makes you appear to have a chip on your shoulder and doesn't look good when trying to explain what you disagree with to other people. This post of yours is exactly what I'm talking about, it looks irrational and unreasonable.
"gaming the system" wasn't a lie at all, certainly not a blatant one. "Gaming" is a matter of subjective opinion and they probably aren't far off the mark, whether you or I agree or not.
I am going to lock and clean up this thread, or maybe just clean it up I haven't decided
I realise sometimes some of us need a place to vent and an audience to vent to, however for a thread that is in the public eye, some of us, not doubt with good conviction have let our emotions run away to the point that the thread makes all of us look like exactly what the anti public firearms ownership crowd want to believe we are.
Stop with the boorishness and I'll just clean it up
If anyone at all uses the c word or attacks another member in this thread again I will delete it.
Latest video address from NZ First MPs Ron Mark and Richard Prosser:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...12881728924623
You don't need to "do" Facebook to be able to view the video.
Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
@Savage1
I would humbly offer that there are people who do agree with PARTS of the select committee report. However people are cagey about saying that because in submissions to parliament or politicians such a statement is often taken as agreement with the document at hand. As such people will often reject a report like this in its entirety so as not to be seen supporting it or giving anyone a chance to skew their response.
Everything said in that video is 100% true. The police will never let up in their effort to use sneaky, underhanded and ultra vires tactics to further encroach on the rights of law-abiding to citizens to legally possess and use firearms. They've been doing this since 1920 - every few years owning or wanting to own a firearm becomes more and more onerous. The evidence that they do this is clear as a bell to those of us that have been following this for a long time.
No offence intended against you personally savage1 - we've met before and we've corresponded a couple of times via PM. You seem like a good bloke but I really find it difficult to respect your organisation when your superiors are playing power games with our interests, without our involvement behind the scenes and then lying to our faces that it's all going to be okay and it's not going to affect us.
/ends
Its the common theme of the rich, the politicians and police HQ. Just lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
https://www.facebook.com/RonMarkMP/v...5599608986165/
Ron Marks latest update.
I'll happily put my hand up in support of better security around ammo storage and cautiously support phasing in better A-cat safe requirements over time but overall they've royally screwed up the whole MSSA classification and are looking like doing the same for overall length of MSSAs with folding /collapsible stocks
Police hold inaccurate records of my pistols so how can I trust them to get it right with full registration? It's not just as a FAL owner that I oppose full registration, it's as a taxpayer I despair of the NZP doing the right thing with IT projects after INCIS and their current poor record keeping
I can see a lot of my hard-earned getting flushed down the toilet when it has been tried before (Canada) and shown to not work
In the UK it is extremely difficult for your average punter to get a FAL and the gangs are happily running around with Czech submachine guns because they are criminals
It's not a firearms thing, it's watching people going the wrong way and charging me to do it that gets my goat
https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...642_1_A517097/...
This is the Police submission and Police Association submission
https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...642_1_A500340/...
So looking at that submission the Police Association would like to see Australian and UK style firearm laws but need registration to make it happen. Another reason to fight it.
I am aware of the difference but you can't tell me that the bias distrust felt from FAL holders across the country is only because we believe it to be true when you think it's not. This distrust has formed largely from police & MSM propaganda. There has been countless lies & disinformation spread in and around the proliferation of firearms. That is a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
This statement is true, I agree. To add, people are entitled to their own opinions too but that doesn't mean they are fact. And this is where yours & my opinion varies especially on the Bill of Rights 1689.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
Nothing is incorrect with the opening statement, I agree that there are firearms in the wrong hands. Perhaps the police could remove the 29 FAL's held by gang members to help with this. Too many firearms in the wrong hands though? Well at the moment this is only backed up by anecdotal evidence and firsthand accounts known only internally. I want hard statistical facts backed up by reliable data to be provided and to date things are contradicting themselves because firearm offending is trending down as the population is increasing but the police say otherwise? This to me is a good all round statistic that counters all of this babel that there is even a gun problem in NZ to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
Which brings me back to yours & my opinion and where opinions don't always remain fact. Yes Firearms ownership is a "privilege" in New Zealand as the Arms legislation provides it as a right, immunity or advantage, protected by law, to those fit and proper persons who apply for a firearms licence (i.e. pay a tax) which a licence “shall” be issued to them as the legislation clearly states.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
Not "may" be issued or "could" be - A licence SHALL be issued.
If you believe in the right to life as stated here: New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 No 109 (as at 01 July 2013), Public Act 8 Right not to be deprived of life – New Zealand Legislation Then surely you must realize that we have a right to defend one's life too.
Richard Prosser had this to say on another forum which sums it up nicely:
"Oh but it is a right. It is a timeless universal human right to be able to possess the means of ensuring one's survival, be that in terms of hunting food, or defending oneself, and one's home and family, or protecting the society or nation of which one is a part.
Neither the English Bill of Rights nor the US Constitution make reference to the right to have arms for the purpose of granting that right; the right exists, as do all elements of the Common Law, and it does not need to be granted, nor may it be denied other than within the Common Law. Rather, it is referenced in order to recognise and acknowledge that right, and to assert and affirm it so that it may not be forgotten or denied by those who make the rules and those who live under them, now and in the future.
The wording of the English Bill of Rights makes it in some ways a more elegant instrument than the US Constitution, because it states that the arms the citizens may have may be "suitable to their conditions", acknowledging that those conditions may change with time and circumstance. By definition arms used for one's defence must be capable of countering threats to one's safety, and as the means of threat evolve, so must the arms available to the citizens be able to evolve.
In the day of its writing, the Bill would have contemplated swords, pikes, muskets, and similar arms. Today it encompasses modern firearms. In the future it will encompass such technology as man is able to develop as time goes on. The conditions may change but the right does not.
The BOR also states that the having of arms shall be "as allowed by the law", meaning that the law shall allow it, but also that within the law there may be provisions to prevent breaches of the law, providing the law the ability to deny the having of arms to those who threaten the law so long as that law is lawful. That sounds convoluted but it means that the likes of criminals and the mentally unsound may be denied the having of arms, but also that no law that unlawfully denies rights under the law is a lawful law.
This latter consideration is pretty much how the granting of firearms licences operates in New Zealand today - a person demonstrating that they have the ability to safely have arms shall be issued with a licence, unless there is some lawful reason why they should not. This is the only matter in which the concept of 'privilege' applies with regards to the having of arms.
For clarity, a lawful law is one crafted within the constraints of the rights of the People. Parliament is of course Sovereign, and can create whatever laws it chooses - but it must be remembered, within that, that the powers of the Sovereign are not unlimited. Sovereign Power is no longer the divine right of Kings to rule alone under God, but rather is contained within, and constrained by, the terms of the Magna Carta.
So a law passed by a Sovereign Parliament, which breaches the terms of the Magna Carta, is not a lawful law. Law abiding people are not bound by such a law, and indeed it is their duty as citizens to oppose it.
So mote it be."
Well this brings me back to why I originally picked at the police's opening statement in their submission, they believe there are "too many of the wrong type" Your union president has been quoted saying "why on earth do we need MSSA's & pistols in the country"Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
But hey, you could be right, I might just be reading between the lines. Somehow though, my gut tells me otherwise.
To be honest I would turn it around and say that police are the ones that are gaming the system. There is no other requirement for an E endorsement than the applicant being fit and proper, and having security of sound construction. The president of the police association has publically stated that he doesn't see why we should be able to own pistols and MSSA's, and the police associations submission leads one to believe that they think obtaining an E endorsement should be exceedingly difficult, if they think that "gaming the system" is giving advise to people who are applying for one.
Read the arms act. None of their made up stuff is in there.
And then there is this gem from that buffoon Cahill.
Just in case you had any doubt about the intentions of the Police Association under Chris Cahill:
" We need to examine why semi-automatics are needed in a hunting environment " " bear in mind it's very easy to turn these weapons into full automatics and get them into the hands of criminals "
" I've sat around a fire talking to hunters and duck shooters and they don't use semi-automatic weapons because they don't need to. "
Morning Rural News for 20 April 2017 | Rural News | Radio New Zealand
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...-20-april-2017
As I said in the other thread Call To Arms, we need to keep it tidy. That way we've at least keep some credibility to the general public who are able to see this, as well as the people who monitor all forums and feed back to whom it concerns.
There's a lot of good stuff written here, but with abit if creative editing, can make us look like redneck buffoons, and that supports every untruth said about us legal, law abiding citizens
Unfortunately I do believe the outright lies and sensationalism are in no way an accident.
Cahill knows he isnt going to be kicked off of the pigs back for telling a few porky's and he also knows telling the population lies repeatedly works, it is called propaganda and has been used by dictators to great effect threw-out the world and history.
He isnt stupid he is as cunning as a outhouse rat.
I'm guilty if not taking to much notice of this as there's abit going on here at the moment. But the timing for this is impeccable. Middle of the roar, leading up to opening duckshooting, last holiday rabbit shoot..... Historically the time most incidents happen, so more statistics to throw around to the easily mislead publicQuote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
I wonder how many people he has fucked over with that lying gob of his? I hear zero police distancing themselves from his position either.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
When the police overthrow the govt it would be handy if the population was unarmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
We have firearms license holders also who think you guys have it all wrong.......and the Committee to all intents and purposes fully supports this view......there has not been a word of dissent from them......!
Have a read and let him know what you think.......https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-useful-idiot/
How does the latest policeman shooting his wife? play into this?
Nothing apart from the upside of poor Police training I think the guy survived being shot?Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
It doesn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
It's a sad fact of spousal abuse in this country that (mostly) men kill their wives/ girlfriends on a regular basis
Rifles, knives, cars, bare hands and usually cos they have decided to get out from under the bloke's abuse and make a new life for themselves
This one happened to be a cop but I reckon that it should have zero bearing on the current firearm legislation other than just being another grim statistic to add to the pile
Pretty much this. After reading the shit storm of brain dead police bashing comments on face book, I am left wondering how many cases like this go unnoticed by the media because the perp is a nobody. I can see the irony of a police officer doing this, while their association calls for stricter gun laws, and I can see our favourite union man spinning it back onto us, but at this point in time I think it is in bad taste to comment. Makes us no better than the grave dancing antis.Quote:
Originally Posted by 308