Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Darkness Alpine


User Tag List

Results 1 to 15 of 62
Like Tree48Likes

Thread: Some reasons why it often goes bad.

Threaded View

LRP Some reasons why it often... 08-09-2019, 09:46 AM
Tussock OK. Literally everything you... 08-09-2019, 11:37 AM
LRP It aint about who's right or... 08-09-2019, 12:51 PM
Tussock Porkies is where you create a... 08-09-2019, 01:04 PM
Walker You must be bored and feeling... 08-09-2019, 06:27 PM
Tussock Bored yes, quarrelsome maybe... 08-09-2019, 07:23 PM
2post 119639 Photos please, this... 08-09-2019, 08:24 PM
Micky Duck LRP thankyou for posting... 08-09-2019, 08:53 PM
Tussock I'm not saying that at all.... 08-09-2019, 09:41 PM
Cordite I enjoyed the post. The OP... 08-09-2019, 10:24 PM
Tussock . 09-09-2019, 04:58 PM
Mr Browning I'll give Tussocks first post... 09-09-2019, 06:03 PM
sako75 I’m going to Tussocks reply... 11-09-2019, 07:32 AM
2post The reason I posted a photo... 09-09-2019, 06:56 PM
LRP No pressure haha. I better do... 09-09-2019, 08:09 PM
2post No pressure :) we all know a... 09-09-2019, 08:21 PM
Tussock A rifle that is worth a dozen... 09-09-2019, 09:30 PM
LRP I shall PM ya later. I'm... 09-09-2019, 09:40 PM
Tankd You are really funny , that... 11-09-2019, 05:30 PM
Tussock What would you like to see? ... 09-09-2019, 09:27 PM
Micky Duck once again you have missed... 09-09-2019, 09:45 PM
LRP Yes Micky D some of what the... 09-09-2019, 10:36 PM
Tussock I think the issue is whoever... 09-09-2019, 10:43 PM
Tussock The advice was bed the rifle.... 09-09-2019, 10:46 PM
Tussock There is no need to speak... 09-09-2019, 10:41 PM
Yesmate Got a brake put on my Ruger 7... 09-09-2019, 10:58 PM
2post Two words come to mind,... 10-09-2019, 07:10 PM
Tussock More than two words come to... 10-09-2019, 10:24 PM
Tussock Accuracy is the reduction of... 09-09-2019, 10:53 PM
Tussock This is math ok. It is hard... 09-09-2019, 11:21 PM
Micky Duck so I got proactive and got... 10-09-2019, 10:27 AM
2post This is what I’m talking... 10-09-2019, 01:32 PM
LRP Looks like a good practical... 11-09-2019, 02:15 AM
Tussock OK. The shot is at a Tahr,... 11-09-2019, 09:01 AM
Micky Duck very close but still no... 10-09-2019, 10:20 AM
Tussock You guys are using the wrong... 10-09-2019, 02:43 PM
Cordite I'm interested in those... 10-09-2019, 07:58 PM
LRP The "precision" is the level... 10-09-2019, 09:37 PM
Tussock You guys are using the wrong... 10-09-2019, 02:44 PM
gadgetman Yes. Vibrations are movement... 10-09-2019, 05:05 PM
tiroahunta Accuracy is when I point/aim... 10-09-2019, 10:39 PM
Tussock A flawless practical... 10-09-2019, 10:43 PM
Cordite I love reading this thread... 11-09-2019, 07:54 AM
Ryan_Songhurst All the aforementioned... 11-09-2019, 08:33 AM
LRP Absolutely Ryan. Trying to... 11-09-2019, 01:40 PM
timattalon I started reading thi last... 11-09-2019, 09:59 AM
Tussock This is turning into an... 11-09-2019, 10:41 AM
Tussock As far as precision goes, it... 11-09-2019, 11:40 AM
Micky Duck if you waiting for Robbie to... 11-09-2019, 11:41 AM
Gibo I have found thumb placement... 11-09-2019, 01:46 PM
Micky Duck said it before and will say... 11-09-2019, 02:48 PM
Tussock You don't want body position... 11-09-2019, 03:04 PM
2post I’m enjoying this thread as... 11-09-2019, 06:25 PM
Tussock Don't listen to people who... 11-09-2019, 08:06 PM
2post That’s not for me, it’s got... 11-09-2019, 08:22 PM
Tussock Yes, but it was not a deer.... 11-09-2019, 09:18 PM
Tankd If you want to learn then... 11-09-2019, 08:57 PM
2post Clean or no trigger 11-09-2019, 09:21 PM
Tussock And you are implying mine was... 11-09-2019, 09:24 PM
gadgetman To me you need to consider... 11-09-2019, 09:58 PM
Tussock Here is my normal shooting... 11-09-2019, 10:12 PM
tiroahunta “Hitting what you want where... 12-09-2019, 08:20 AM
  1. #1
    LRP
    LRP is offline
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    88

    Some reasons why it often goes bad.

    Accuracy is the reduction of all variables to zero. Or at least as
    close as us mortals can get them. One of these variables is where the
    muzzle points as the bullet exits relative to the line of sight. That
    pesky barreled action is like rubber; hard rubber laying on a chunk of
    wood. Smack that hard rubbery thing with something and it's gonna be
    bounced off of that piece of wood; but it ain't gonna come back down
    to exactly the same place.

    Examining the difference between a stock without epoxy bedding and one
    with epoxy bedding for the same barreled action, we note that when the
    epoxy bedded stock is used groups (scores?) are excellent. But when
    the plain stock is used, scores (groups?) are horrible. Even when the
    same ammo is used. So, there must be a reason. There is. Bedding.

    When a rifle fires, its barreled action whips and vibrates all over
    the place in every direction and various magnitudes. Such physical
    trauma results in the receiver finally settling down in a microscopically
    different place after each shot. After which it now gets to start
    the vibrating and whipping all over again when the next shot is fired.

    But that microscopically different starting point causes the barreled
    action to take off in a different direction and magnitude than before
    when the next shot is fired. This just repeats for each and every shot.

    As the muzzle points in random places for each shot due to these whips
    and vibrations, it will point at a different place relative to the line
    of sight for each shot. That is what causes groups (accuracy) to be
    less than what makes smiley faces. Barrel weight doesn't reduce this
    situation. Neither does handloads with extremely low velocity standard
    deviations. It is further aggravated by out-of-square bolt faces and
    locking lugs not making full contact. If the barrel touches part of
    the forend, that adds another accuracy-degrading element to an already
    bad situation. And the best cases, primers, powder and bullets so
    darned perfectly assembled won't help either. If the barreled action
    doesn't start from the same place for each shot, the bullets won't end
    up in the same place later.

    So, if the barreled action can be somehow returned to exactly the same
    place in the stock for each and every shot, the magnitude of those
    barrel whips and vibrations will be greatly reduced, if not practically
    eliminated. Then the only thing left is normal barreled action vibrations
    at their resonant frequency, but this can't be eliminated although it
    has virtually no effect on accuracy. Epoxy bedding was and is the
    solution.

    With the proper epoxy material being a near zero-tolerance fit to the
    receiver, there's no room for the receiver to move around in from shot
    to shot. Clearance between the receiver and the epoxy is .0001-in. or
    less. That tolerance is at all places around the receiver. With
    the correct torque on the stock screws, that receiver will go back to
    the same position with the same tension so darned repeatable from shot
    to shot that the accuracy is the equal of a barrel clamped in a machine
    rest with just the action hanging on the back end.

    Benchresters moved one step further some years ago. After expoxy bedding
    their receivers, they removed the barreled action, roughed up the bedding
    surface and the receiver, then glued the stock to the receiver. That
    made sure the barreled action started its high-on-the-Richter-Scale moves
    from exactly the same place, plus it eliminated the need to check the
    stock screw torque a few times during the shooting day.

    If one does not reduce the physical variables their own body has as part
    of the complete shooting system, they may be large enough to mask any
    improvements that have been made to the rifle and/or ammo to make the
    mechanical parts of the system a flawless performer. Sometimes, that
    does happen.

    BB

    NEXT PART FOLLOWS ON


    : .....it would seem that
    : the inaccuracy caused by the necessarily loose fit of gun to shooter
    : would overwhelm any looseness of fit in the rifle itself. Comments?
    : Explanations?

    I went through the receiver bedding stuff earlier. Now here's the
    rest of the story.

    `Bedding' a rifle to the shooter is equally as important. The rifle
    must be held with the same pressure at all its person-contact points
    just like the receiver in its stock-contact points. Here's why.....

    After the bullet starts down the bore, Newton's Law becomes a very big
    issue. The heavier the bullet, the more force needed to push it out
    the bore. Seems the pressure behind the bullet also pushes back on the
    inside of the cartridge case with about the same amount of force. As
    a .308 Win. bullet goes down the bore and arrives at the muzzle going
    about 2600 fps, the rifle has moved backwards about a tenth of an inch
    as well as tilting upwards due to the center of the buttplate being
    below the bore (hence pressure) axis. And it twists opposite the
    direction of the rifling twist. How much it moves depends on how
    firmly the rifle is being held; if tight, it won't move much at
    all.

    If the amount of shooter-holding/resistance varies from shot to shot, there
    is no way the rifle will move the same amount in the same direction as
    the bullet goes from case mouth to muzzle. Therefore, although the
    sights were dead center on the target when you heard the shot being
    fired, by the time the bullet gets out of the muzzle, its path ain't
    where you'ld like it to be.

    It takes about 3 milliseconds for a .308 bullet to go from case mouth
    to muzzle. During that time is when the rifle recoils and whips about.
    Some examples of what causes the bullet to end up striking the target
    at an undesirable place are:

    * Butt held too low in shoulder lets less mass be behind it; no shoulder
    bone behind it, just flesh. The rifle's butt slips down a bit during
    recoil which moves the muzzle end up. Bullet strikes high above call.

    Almost the same thing happens with different shoulder pressure; it
    causes vertical shot stringing.

    * Cheek pressed hard/soft on buttstock changes resistance laterally or
    vertically depending on pressure axis. Bullet will strike in any
    direction away from call.

    * Forehand held at different places with different pressure on forend;
    all kinds of pressure point/axis differences. Amount of rifle movement
    during bullet barrel time varies. Bullet strikes typically high and
    low relative to call.

    A good example is shooting prone with a sling. Once in position,
    do not move your front elbow; the one on the arm with the sling on.
    Use your other hand to adjust sights, pet dogs, throw rocks at your score
    keeper, but do not move that elbow. If it moves out of place only
    half an inch, your next shot will be one-half MOA off call; move that
    elbow one inch and the next shot will be one full MOA off call.

    * Pistol grip held differently for each shot. As the pressure applied
    to the trigger gets transferred to the stock through the hand when
    the sear releases, how that energy transfers to the stock while the
    bullet is going down the barrel adds another dimension to where the
    muzzle is when the bullet goes out. This is the main reason why light-
    pull triggers enable the best accuracy; very little energy gets moved
    into the stock and won't change muzzle position significantly. But
    those four and a half ton triggers (sorry, 4.5 pound) on service rifles
    used in competition.........no wonder it takes years and years for
    most folks to master them. Three cheers for those 2 to 8 ounce wonders.

    A good rule of thumb is to hold the pistol grip with hand pressure
    equal to the trigger pull weight; at least. With heavy triggers, you
    need to firmly grab the grip, otherwise, when a few pounds of force
    slams back against the trigger stop, that firmer grip reduces the
    amount of rifle movement the force causes.

    All of which explains why free rifles have all those adjustable `gadgets'
    all over them. Each part of the stock is adjusted to be a perfect fit
    to the shooter's body. That way, the shooter's pressure on the stock will
    be exactly the same from shot to shot.

    And for those who marvel at those tiny groups benchresters shoot, even if
    they are far back from winning anything.....well a great number of them
    shoot free recoil; the rifle just rests on sandbags, then the thumb and
    forefinger squeezes that 2-ounce trigger, the rifle goes bang and recoils
    exactly the same amount in each direction. Every single shot. There is
    no shooter contact with it except for the trigger. But that shooting
    style isn't done in other disciplines. You gotta hold onto that magnum
    you're gonna bust an elk with this fall; and that magnum moves about twice
    as much before the bullet exits.

    Rifle stocks are nothing more than an interface between the barreled action
    and the shooter. Both things on either side of the interface vibrate and
    move all over the place. If that interface is well fit to the metal at
    one end and the flesh-and-bone thing at the other end, all the variables
    of their fit will be reduced to zero; or pretty darn close that is.

    BB

    END OF QUOTED STORY

    So when someone with a powerhouse heavy-recoiling super light bangstick says it does quarter moa all day just smile and say "great".
    muaythai, 57jl, Moa Hunter and 3 others like this.

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Reasons to take the shottie with you when feeding the Heifers #02
    By kiwi39 in forum Varminting and Small Game Hunting
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 30-07-2013, 06:16 PM
  2. Q, what possible reasons are there for a 308 cartridge to stick?
    By steven in forum Reloading and Ballistics
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 21-05-2013, 06:59 PM
  3. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 19-01-2013, 08:05 AM
  4. I kind of want this for reasons
    By Beavis in forum Firearms, Optics and Accessories
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-12-2012, 08:58 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Welcome to NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums! We see you're new here, or arn't logged in. Create an account, and Login for full access including our FREE BUY and SELL section Register NOW!!