Thread: What exactly is a MOA rifle??

I know this might seem like a silly question but here goes anyway. At what point can you call you rifle a MOA rifle?

The reason I'm asking this is more out of curiosity thing more than anything else because every rifle I see listed on Tard Me or anywhere else seems to shoot MOA according to it's owner.
Now what triggered this was I've just done that "accuracy test" thread test with a couple of rifles and on any given day (weather permitting) I'd be confident enough that i would be able to reproduce those results...However this picture is from when I was testing my CZ 452 with different ammo etc earlier this year.

Now this is pretty darn good shooting for a 22lr BUT even though this rifle/ammo combo managed to do 4 groups like this, it sure as sh!t wont do it all the time.
This is a more typical 4x 5shot group that it produces.

As you can see it doesn't always produce MOA groups.

So I guess my question is can you call a rifle a MOA rifle if it produces 1 MOA 3 shot group, 1 MOA 5 shot group, 4 or 5 MOA groups one after the other or do you take it to the extreme and say only if you can constantly produce MOA groups with no POI change??

As I understand it the minute of angle has to do with the distance to target with the benchmark being one minute of angle at one hundred yards so therefore if you were shooting at fifty yards and wanted to claim sub minute of angle the time the group would need to measure leas than half a minute. Whilst it is not exactly correct, a minute of angle is widely referred to as one inch at a hundred yards.

Yeah a 3 shot group fired on one occasion only at 100 yds which measures 1.047 inches centre to centre qualifies the rifle for ever and a day to be a MOA accurate rifle. Likewise "bug hole" and "clover leaf" groups claims. Some claims that people put up would put there muskets into benchrest comp capability.

That's not withstanding that new out of box accuracy these days can genuinely be =<1 MOA.

Have also seen nice pictures supporting tight groups posted on forums - all good.
Some of the other unsupported claims I treat as a grain of salt.

Generally all TradeMe rifles are capable of substantially less than 1 MOA.

Nice 22 groups BTW.

And your MOA calcs are generally pretty spot on.

I think it's 5 shot groups, across a few days with the aim point being the point measured from.

No point in having a 1/2 MOA rifle that has a zero that wanders due to bedding etc.

This is purely my opinion, and I have no experience in this kind of thing.

Going by descriptions of a lot of hunting rifles you see for sale, there are a lot out there that could be used in the Olympics

If in doubt when buying ask for a picture, likewise when selling. People can always shoot a group at 20m and say it was 100m but it gives you something to go by

Originally Posted by Savage1

Going by descriptions of a lot of hunting rifles you see for sale, there are a lot out there that could be used in the Olympics

You are to young to be so cynical. Ha ha ha ha. Minute of deer is all that matters in a hunting rifle.

If it groups a 1" or underat 100yrds who give a shit? Mind you I was trying to group a Tikka at the Taupo range, I had a selection of ammo, I fired a group of 3 and when upto the target, it was all over the place like a mad woman's shit. The guy next to me sideled over for a gander and said " that groups well" So really it a perception!!

MOA Rifle claims are just that, claims....... Mostly because the claimant has disregarded the most important variable ....... The nut behind the butt.


I'm happy if I can put Five shots onto an A4 at 100m

Call it good and go hunting

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by P38

MOA Rifle claims are just that, claims....... Mostly because the claimant has disregarded the most important variable ....... The nut behind the butt.


I'm happy if I can put Five shots onto an A4 at 100m

Call it good and go hunting

Cheers
Pete

Sorry Pete, didn't recognise you!

if you want to test for an honest 1 MOA rifle / shooter your going to have to shoot 10 or more shot groups, 3 or 5 aren't enough . . . to me.

I think for a lightweight large game hunting rifle if it can constantly put three shots under MOA then it is a MOA rifle, very achievable.
Plenty of customs and the odd factory rifle that will do a lot better than that.

Haveing recently seen what a benchrest rifle in good conditions can do I can honestly say I have never seen anyone claim that level of accuracy anywhere before....not even close.

Originally Posted by 223nut

If in doubt when buying ask for a picture, likewise when selling. People can always shoot a group at 20m and say it was 100m but it gives you something to go by

nah, ask them to shoot a group while you watch While rifles might be "MOA on demand" a lot of shooters are not ................. myself included

Well I must have asked the question wrong...not trying to stir the pot or anything but it seems the general consensus is either people didn't read/understand the whole post or when claiming accuracy for a rifle anything goes, even based on 1x 3 shot group which may have been a fluke and can never be repeated again but then still claiming MOA accuracy??

The reason why I asked @Maca49 is because if it shoots an 1" @ 100m it does matter to me because the majority of my shooting is vermin, not large game, so a genuine MOA rifle is a real asset - especially when shooting bunnies @ 200+ m.
There is a massive difference when a rifle will shoot a 3 shot MOA group once and one which will shoot a 5 shot MOA constantly.
@Savage1 and @rossi.45 - I tend to agree with you, if you cant repeat it then it's not really a measure of what the rifle can do so is it fair claiming that it can??

Originally Posted by suthy

Well I must have asked the question wrong...not trying to stir the pot or anything but it seems the general consensus is either people didn't read/understand the whole post or when claiming accuracy for a rifle anything goes, even based on 1x 3 shot group which may have been a fluke and can never be repeated again but then still claiming MOA accuracy??

The reason why I asked @Maca49 is because if it shoots an 1" @ 100m it does matter to me because the majority of my shooting is vermin, not large game, so a genuine MOA rifle is a real asset - especially when shooting bunnies @ 200+ m.
There is a massive difference when a rifle will shoot a 3 shot MOA group once and one which will shoot a 5 shot MOA constantly.
@Savage1 and @rossi.45 - I tend to agree with you, if you cant repeat it then it's not really a measure of what the rifle can do so is it fair claiming that it can??

Yes has to be repeatable consistently.
5 shot groups are unreasonable out of largecaliber lightweight rifles tho especially when they generally have less than 5 shot mags so requiring a re position mid group.