Thread: What exactly is a MOA rifle??

Originally Posted by suthy

Well I must have asked the question wrong...not trying to stir the pot or anything but it seems the general consensus is either people didn't read/understand the whole post or when claiming accuracy for a rifle anything goes, even based on 1x 3 shot group which may have been a fluke and can never be repeated again but then still claiming MOA accuracy??

The reason why I asked @Maca49 is because if it shoots an 1" @ 100m it does matter to me because the majority of my shooting is vermin, not large game, so a genuine MOA rifle is a real asset - especially when shooting bunnies @ 200+ m.
There is a massive difference when a rifle will shoot a 3 shot MOA group once and one which will shoot a 5 shot MOA constantly.
@Savage1 and @rossi.45 - I tend to agree with you, if you cant repeat it then it's not really a measure of what the rifle can do so is it fair claiming that it can??

Yes has to be repeatable consistently.
5 shot groups are unreasonable out of largecaliber lightweight rifles tho especially when they generally have less than 5 shot mags so requiring a re position mid group.

Wots mag capacity got to do with it? When I am load developing or shooting for groups I single load my magazine rifles at any rate, regardless of their mag capacity.

Originally Posted by zimmer

Wots mag capacity got to do with it? When I am load developing or shooting for groups I single load my magazine rifles at any rate, regardless of their mag capacity.

I shoot hunting rifles so if it wont shoot from the mag it is no use to me, secondly what point is a 5 shot group(or 10 or 20) on a rifle that will never be able to fire 5 shots in a row?
But mainly barrel heat, mines hotter than I like after 3 shots.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

I shoot hunting rifles so if it wont shoot from the mag it is no use to me, secondly what point is a 5 shot group(or 10 or 20) on a rifle that will never be able to fire 5 shots in a row?
But mainly barrel heat, mines hotter than I like after 3 shots.

Yeah can I understand all that and I too possess one sizzler but single loading it rather than out of the mag has never affected my shooting position or my shooting ability.The original point was repositioning part way thru the group when the mag emptied not an overheating barrel?

Originally Posted by suthy

Well I must have asked the question wrong...not trying to stir the pot or anything but it seems the general consensus is either people didn't read/understand the whole post or when claiming accuracy for a rifle anything goes, even based on 1x 3 shot group which may have been a fluke and can never be repeated again but then still claiming MOA accuracy??

The reason why I asked @Maca49 is because if it shoots an 1" @ 100m it does matter to me because the majority of my shooting is vermin, not large game, so a genuine MOA rifle is a real asset - especially when shooting bunnies @ 200+ m.
There is a massive difference when a rifle will shoot a 3 shot MOA group once and one which will shoot a 5 shot MOA constantly.
@Savage1 and @rossi.45 - I tend to agree with you, if you cant repeat it then it's not really a measure of what the rifle can do so is it fair claiming that it can??

With work rifles if they don't do MOA all the time they get rebarrelled, not three shot or five or even ten shot groups. If they can't do that they are sold to a pig islander, thrown in the gully, used as fire pokers. Yes I have a bushmaster barrel for a fire poker They haven't got to do 1/4 or even 1/2, but MOA is critical. (There's three or four at the gunsmiths now)

I did have that one regret rifle I should never have sold. A butt ugly 6.5X55 but fuck could that thing shot, myself and someone else put two bullets same hole with the thing more than once. the third shot would just make the hole a little bigger, by a little I mean we were out with a micrometer checking. But this fucking idiot I know sold it to buy a Ruger 308.

Ha ha Can't resist This IS a good question!

In common usage it is 5 shot groups at 100 M or 100yd.
Generally its group diameter Max spread of centers. AcCuracy and zero holding aren't included.
group siZe shows POTENTIAL for accuracy.

As stated range is relevant.
for -22 RF a lot of gun / ammo become unstable and shoot well at 25 but not at 50m. I've had this with-303 too. 2inch group at 50m then nothing on target at 100.
for long range rifles many variables deteriorate moa precision at 1ong range. eg velocity spread and thats not counting wind. Rifle/ Shooter performance is often expressed in minutes of elevation.

of course grouping is notjust a property of rifleand ammo. Type of rest equipment used and scope power are crucial.
Brian Litz adds' together variation from different Sources using a 'root mean square' method which assumes an underlying normal distribution and the cited "group size' is say 95% confidence interval which is mathematically valid. You can estimate confidence intervaIs for the underlying standard deviation (elevation and wind age separately). If youshoot 3 shot groups you cant effectiveley estimate that s-d. There are not enough degrees of freedom.


I would be happy if the average group size is under 1 moa. The more group5 you fire the better of course. However GIMP's guide of 5 groups would stand up to mathematical scrutiny.

Just shoot one round. Then you can truly claim one hole accuracy.

The prob is heat, anymore than 3 shots one after the other, with a suspressor on is heat haze off the barrel, when I can't see I shoot like Pete. I shoot my 17 HMR out to, longest shot on rabbit 184 metres. That rifle happily shoots 1/2 squares at 100 metres, subject to conditions, I've sold a few rifles because they won't shoot factory ammo into an 1" at 100 metres. But they're out there, my Sako 6.5 is consistently that accurate on different factory ammo, the 204, for long range bunnies, looks the berries after just a few rounds, will try again this weekend. No I don't want to reload. Many guys I have seen are not interested in MOA because deer are a fairly big target. Rabbits a 200+ for my 67 yr old eyes ain't!! Your scope adds to your ability as well!!

I won't keep a rifle that won't hit a tennis ball at 300yds. I've had lots of rifles that will do just that. Some sold to people on here. It's just not that hard to shoot inch or better if the rifle is well set up to start with.

Originally Posted by suthy

I know this might seem like a silly question but here goes anyway. At what point can you call you rifle a MOA rifle?

If it can take down one of these big bastards at 100 paces then I would call it a MOA rifle

Have been unable to locate any moa to test mine. Perhaps there too much supplejack for them where I hunt

Originally Posted by nevereadyfreddy

Have been unable to locate any moa to test mine. Perhaps there too much supplejack for them where I hunt

1080 bro

Ryan, you are confusing minute of angle with minute of Moa

I consider, a rifle that can shoot 4-5 shot groups, consistently over multiple targets, on several days to be MOA, ive got a few that I can do this with and several more that I get a good group and then blow out to 1-5-2" next time out, good trigger, I think make the biggest difference, on weather I can get consistent results.
Take a look at the results, I getting on my Cooper Model 51, I very impressed. esp as its shoots all bullets, I have tried in the 65-75gr weight into the same spot, shot both 75gr groups and then the 65gr v-max

I've often heard/read over the years that a 3 shot group tests the rifle and a 5 shot group tests the shooter.

I do 3 shot groups with my centrefires and 5 (or sometimes 10) with 22LR because the ammo is cheap and its fun. All hunting rifles, I'm sure competition target shooting is a different story.

Most modern rifles I've used have been capable of pretty reliable sub-MOA 3 shot groups with ammunition they like.