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Cz 527 and brno fox bolt handles are a PITA.. no clearance on scopes unless you use very high rings.. I cut this one off and reshaped it to work with low mounts.. this particular action is not actually staying as the TCM, it has a take down alloy an carbon fiber chassis which this bolt handle is more fitting.
I started with a COAL of 38 - 40mm looking at your photo, but QL gave pressures and velocities that seemed a bit low - COAL makes a huge difference in QL and also QL can't account for individual variances. So i fudged the COAL to match your velocity results, which should give corresponding proportional numbers for barrel lengths. Its all diminishing returns past 20" - about 23fps per inch. 18" looks to be a good balance between maximizing velocity vs handiness.
also FYI QL suggests (to be taken as advice only , its just a software calculation as you know ) that youd be around 49k PSI with 13gr to make that velocity from that barrel , and 13.4 grains will have you hitting up to 55k PSI. H110/W296 seems to be about the best powder choice for it.
Once youve made your final barrel would you be interested in selling on the reamer?
My COAL is 39mm running 13gr of H110 with an average speed of 3180fps in the 22" 1-12" twist but the ES is all over the show. It might get better on the second loading once all the brass is fire formed.
I machined the 1-14" twist Shilen to 20" and the 2 test shots gave me 3210 and 3203fps with the same load over the chrony.
I have high hopes for the Aliant 300MP after reading the great results of .22K Hornet shooters on forums in regards to velocities and single figure extreme spread numbers.
Its looking like cutting up and velocity testing my other barrel will be a waist of time and ammo. The 20" Shilen points real nice and hasnt lost any speed over the faster twist 22" barrel.
The 22" 1-12" might be better for another test I have in mind.. .22TCM 40deg improved..
I can ream the TCM chamber with a .223AI reamer to give it a 40deg neck and straighter walls. Could be better for 50-55gr bullets or another 150-200fps from a 40gr bullet.
https://preview.ibb.co/gz9s00/JdpPcPK.jpg
Im not certain the reamer will still be any good after it gets through the cues of guys barrels that are waiting patiently in line for this chambering. ;)
A little more midnight oil burnt and I got the Shilen barrel threaded for a suppressor and loaded some more test loads.
This time I loaded on once fired brass and use CCI BR-4 primers to see if there was any change in the extreme spreads. I also backed off the H110 charge from 13gr at 3180fps to 12.5gr at 3050fps which matched the Lilgun pressures and velocities a bit better.
I loaded both 12.5gr of H110 and 10gr of LilGun with 40gr Sierra Blitzkings and put them on paper at 100y.
I still have the 7x VX1 mounted as my picatinny rail adaptor still hasnt arrived from USA to fit some bigger glass. There was also a bit of wind from right to left which resulted in some slight horozontal stringing but still some respectfull groups.
The extreme spreads were better but still nothing to write home about...
H110 : 3015 3030 3051 3042 3059
https://preview.ibb.co/bDOkSq/20181107-183008.jpg
LilGun : 3034 3069 3028 3081 3042
https://preview.ibb.co/bMuaSq/20181107-182951.jpg
My Alliant 300MP arrived today and also some Hornady 40gr BT V-Max projectiles so Ill try and make time tomorrow to test that too.
The suppressor made for much quieter shooting, about the same report as a .22 magnum.
I also made up a blind fit thread protector to keep it looking tidy.
https://preview.ibb.co/nB7Unq/20181107-180448.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/g2kRYV/20181107-180700.jpg
I like the idea of a blind thread cap.
I made a little muzzle brake for my 10/22 to cover the thread when the silencer wasn't fitted but the blind cap is simply elegant.
Nice
https://preview.ibb.co/bWzuqA/20181108-190438.jpg
I had a quick session with the TCM today and the new Alliant 300MP powder...
The powder looks just like H110/Win 296 but a quick bit of research found a decoration from Alliant powders saying it is not the same powder and that it is actually slower burning than H110/296.
With that info in mind I put some loads together to work out a max load. I started at 12gr as my H110 load is 13gr and it is meant to be slower than the H110. Here were the 300MP chrony results with 40gr Blitzkings:
12.0gr=2961fps 12.5gr=3060fps 13.0gr=3190 13.5gr=3271 very flat primer.
https://preview.ibb.co/h4AdHq/20181108-184933.jpg
This is very much the same as my H110 figures and I was expecting to be able to get 14gr to 15gr in before seeing the pressure signs I saw at 13.5gr. The powder was not compressed and there is room for about 15gr without a crunch but it seems its not as slow as I was hoping so I called 12.8gr my max load.
Something I did notice was how much cleaner it burned and the lack of any sooty deposits on the necks unlike the H110 and Lilgun which are on the left and middle of this pic with 300mp on the right..
https://preview.ibb.co/iYp5xq/20181108-183226.jpg
So I loaded 5 rounds of 40gr Sierra Blitzkings and 5 rounds of 40gr Hornady V-Max to put over the chrony on paper.
The V-Max's were a dream to load, the small boat tail helped them seat smoothly and perfectly (and concentric without having to try) without all the nursing it takes with the flat base Blitzkings.
https://preview.ibb.co/gMFZqA/20181108-175226.jpg https://preview.ibb.co/cK39OV/20181108-175732.jpg
The V-Max's had to be seated a bit deeper to clear the lands as the ogive shape is quite a bit different to the Blitzkings.
This made for higher pressures and velocities than the Blitzkings so I will have to load those ones down a touch to preserve my pimer pockets better.
https://preview.ibb.co/dcV63V/20181108-200051.jpg
The extreme spread was a little better than all the other powders Ive tried in TCM but still not that great.
however....... they did shoot great!!! 5 rounds under 1/2 MOA.
3196fps, 3211fps, 3198fps, 3228fps, 3148fps
https://preview.ibb.co/faww3V/20181108-181238.jpg
The Blitzkings shot much the same sub inch as with the other powders but again the ES was a little better:
3047fps, 3052fps, 3066fps, 3081fps, 3067fps
https://preview.ibb.co/gvQdHq/20181108-181244.jpg
I will try some more groups with the Vmax backed off to about 3050fps to 3100 as this seems to be where all the powders run without excess pressure.
Here's the tiny .22 TCM next to the humble .22 Hornet for size comparison.
Their ballistics are quite similar but although both cartridges share very similar case capacities the powders and charges seem to act quite differently.
https://preview.ibb.co/kRY9OV/20181108-192521.jpg
My ES was still around 40fps when I changed to 300mp in my K Hornet. Was all over the place with lil gun.
I improved it by way of annealing, primer and running a homemade button thru after sizing as my dies run a very tight neck.
I put it down to a small case thing but my ES is depending on day 15-25fps. Not as good as my other centerfires but good enough for as far as I will shoot it.
I run the 40 vmax as well at 3100fps. They're a bit too efficient on soft game tho [emoji16]
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@R93 Yes I am starting to pin a lot of the velocity spread on the idiosyncrasies of the small case. The TCM has a very thick neck due to its parent case being .223rem so neck tensions are very tight. Also just like hornet, tiny variations in powder charges or primers equate to big changes in velocities.
Flat based bullets have been a real challenge to seat concentric so many of them will be meeting the lands off center. The first 5 shots or 40gr V-Max show real promise so Ill continue working up a load with them.
I also need to get my hands on some Nosler varmageddons as they have a nice little boat tail too.
Although I built this rig primarily as a intermediate range varminting platform, I should probably see how the 50-55gr bullets go too.
All in all its a neat little round that would be useful in all the same areas a .22 hornet is and in some scenarios maybe perform a little better.
Did you find the 300MP cleaner in hornet too?
i am curious myself on how the 50grn bullets will work, i think the 55s will be to slow for Varminting but maybe good for Goats etc . . . lookn forward to your results to find out
be interesting to compare 40 vrs 50s once you have the data . . . will the higher velocity give the 40s the edge on paper and in the field at longer range . . . so much to look forward to.
the thick neck on the TCM is a worry . . . i would be looking at neck turning with a chamber to fit them
So I decided to leave the Brno 465 Hornet alone after checking out the magazine for TCM. The 465s shorter action and forward mounted ejector compared to the Brno .222 and CZ 527 is an advantage for the TCM but the TCM cases are too large in the diameter to fit in the 465s mag even with mods to remove the side pressings.
This would mean running The 465s shorter action with the .222 or .223 bottom metal and magazine to feed the TCM winch would in turn leave at least one rifle unusable in parts in my collection which Im not keen to do.
https://preview.ibb.co/kQ02TV/20181108-123259.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/cLRy2q/20181108-142330.jpg
Instead I decided to leave it on the .223 action and modify a spare .223mag to feed the TCM rounds.
After a lot of meaasuring up and feeding dummy rounds to see exactly what needed to be done I puts some plastic in the mill and made a rear spacer block of 14.5mm wide.
I milled some slots into the side which locate it snugly on the slot pressings in the mag.
https://preview.ibb.co/f0K1Nq/20181108-202636.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/kio6oV/20181108-204239.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/iDkK8V/20181108-204357.jpg
I then made up a new shorter follower to suit and cut a piece of .22 magnum mag spring to fit in the narrower channel.
final mod was to shorten the feed lips back 3mm to match the lips on the .222 mag, this lets the cartridge pop up vertically earlier into the controlled feed extractor before it starts riding up the feed ramp and casing misalignment issues with the extractor.
Ill touch up the bluing and stamp .22 TCM on the top of the follower and it will be done. It holds and feeds 5 rounds of TCM flawlessly now at any speed.
https://preview.ibb.co/dDNMNq/20181108-205103.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/k9e1Nq/IMG-20181025-WA0027.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/gADT2q/20181108-215128.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossi.45
Not really a worry but a annoyance meaning annealing before every load.
Personally if I was to bother neck turning and having to have a custom chamber reamer made to suit the new neck dia, Id be looking at making it .20cal and 40deg improved at the same time. That would be the perfect calibre in this little hot rod, the same weight bullets only faster with a higher BC.
I didn't really have or notice a problem with any powder being really dirty to be fair.
I am curious to see if a bit of internal neck reaming may help with your tight necks and sooty cases?
I agree the 465 mags are limiting.
I have single fed a few rounds I loaded long and had slightly better accuracy with the 40 vmax.
But it is still plenty good enough at mag length.
I have shot a couple deer with the 55 hornady soft points and a couple with 45 sierras. (Clean shots inside 100yrds) the sierras seemed to do more damage so I will stick with those.
I have a heap of 50 vmax that I got of another forum member that I will try when I have some brass freed up.
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It seems this 20" Shilen barrel really likes the 40gr V max projectiles.. it doesnt seem to matter what powder/velocity or how bad the extreme spread is.. at 100y they just keep cutting tiny ragged hole groups.
I revisited the slower burning 2205 yesterday with the vmax as I noticed a trend of higher velocities with those bullets.
A max compressed load of 12.2gr of 2205 is still a low pressure load and shot this 5 shot string from new unfireformed brass.
3032
3092
3027
2964
2981
This powder would benefit from a longer throat so I could seat the projectile out a bit and get a bit more powder in without compressing it.
It was my go to powder in .22 K Hornet and always gave good results. Looking at these speeds Id say I could get 3300fps from it if I could get a bit more powder in there.
Its looking like Ill be setting it up to shoot the 40gr and 50gr V-Max exclusively so pushing the chambers throat forward 100-120 thou could be the go.
a longer throat will mean less pressure on my max loads with the other three powders too which are not even close to compressed loads.
I was hoping Aliant 300MP was going to be the answer to a slower burning powder that filled the case but it can still blow a primer out without a full case of powder. 12.5gr seems to be the sweet spot for it giving 3100fps. Other than its much cleaner burn it acts almost identical to H110.
ok .... I seem to recall reading article (will try to find it again) about the hornet behaving much better when fed pistol primers...... much tighter groups and velocity spreads if memory serves me correctly...... this hot rod might be way to hot but could be worth looking into...will go digging for article now.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/am...motaip_200909/
@Micky Duck thanks for that, ill give some a try too..
I selected SR primers after following the trends in USA forums who are reloading TCM pistols but I guess I wont know if I dont try..
Tested the TCM on a soft target this morning.. 185 yards with a 40gr V-Max.. seems to do the job...
https://preview.ibb.co/ixU8AA/20181113-101020.jpg
Brutal :XD:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingman
good to see you left the back straps and able to be removed for cook up..... looks like a mighty effective wee round.
is this rifle going to get a dial up scope on top in the future or are you going to keep it as a medium range light varminter ?
Both... :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by rossi.45
Still waiting for my picatinny adaptor to show up from usa to fit the bigger rings and glass
look forward to your results as you get more trigger time . . . especially how far you can push those 40grn bullets out to on paper and critters.
ive had plenty of experience with 50, 55, 60 grain 224 bullets at +3000fps but the 40s are an unknown .. . good luck and good shooting
R.
@Micky Duck A proper thank you is in order.. I really appreciate the link to CCIs article on pistol primers in the .22 hornet...
Pistol primers for the win!!!
I loaded up 13 rounds with 12.8gr of 300MP, 40gr V-max and CCI small pistol primers and put them on paper at 100 yards.
https://preview.ibb.co/cLSmjf/20181114-110514.jpg
There was a light wind from left to right but steady not gusting. I put 3 rounds on another target to test the load and the POI then put ten over the chrono and into this group:
The extreme spread was great! Id say these primers would sort out the other powders too but as clean as his 300MP burns I think Ill stay with it for now.
FPS= 3152, 3154, 3149, 3143, 3156, 3144, 3151, 3152, 3152, 3158 15fps ES
https://preview.ibb.co/ni2rH0/20181114-112526.jpg
The two fliers puts the group just under an inch but thats still 8 shots inside 1/2 MOA! I cant wait to see what this little hot rod will do with bigger glass...
Made the most of the sunny day and had a play with the 16" .223 barrel on it too.
https://preview.ibb.co/b1aYVL/20181114-112827.jpg
Even gave the old girl a few down the tube.. Brno 465 .22 hornet with 4X German Pecar optic
Not to shabby with crappy 45gr factory soft points but one day soon when I get time Ill work up a load for it with 35gr and 40gr V-max.
https://preview.ibb.co/cJ2xqL/20181114-125226.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/fQ9ox0/20181114-131235.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/e5SrH0/20181114-131246.jpg
For those of you that didnt want to read through the whole article, here is the section regarding pistol primers in small cases:
Too Much Primer
You can have too much primer. When the output gas volume of the primer approaches that of the cartridge case, sometimes special handling is required. I remember when CCI was working with some experimental primers for 9mm Luger, and we started seeing odd time-pressure curves on the computer. Instead of the normal single peak, we saw two. One QA tech commented that it looked like the dual humps of a Bactrian camel.
It was a classic case of high gas volume but too little temperature. The primer's extra gas unseated the bullet while still trying to light off the main charge, producing one peak. Then the bullet retarded as it engaged the rifling, creating the second peak. Although a shooter would never notice this in a production firearm, that double hump was worrisome, and we abandoned that mix.
We have a classic case study in the .22 Hornet. For years Speer used Small Rifle primers in the Hornet. When I shot some of the data for Speer Reloading Manual Number 12, I found too many propellants that were so rangy they would not meet my standards for publishable loads. As a result, we did not show very many propellants for the Hornet, and the velocities were rather modest.
While I was developing the .22 Hornet 33-grain TNT HP bullet, I tried Small Pistol primers, knowing from the 9mm experience above that such a light bullet could be unseated by primer power alone. I'd talked to a number of handloaders who were getting better accuracy with Small Pistol primers, and I wanted a look at the concept in a lab setting. Sure enough, switching to Small Pistol primers reduced the variations in pressure and velocity and also reduced average pressure. The latter let us safely run the charge weights a little higher for velocities more appropriate to the Hornet. Manual Number 14 shows many more Hornet loads with better velocities, thanks to Small Pistol primers.
Well that goes in the "you learn something new every day" file.
awesome it was of help dude.enjoy your new rifle ,you sure are putting in the hard yards to make her tick.
I got it to the stage where it shoots 40gr great at 3150fps but curiosity got the best of me this morning.
The .22 TCM reamer I ordered just had the std length free bore for the pistol cambering so the 40gr bullets had to be seated very deep to clear the lands.
I decided to push the throat forward to pull the projectiles out longer. This will give less case pressure and possibly allow for hotter loads without compressing loads.
I also wanted to try some 50gr V-Max through it so it had to be done.
http://iforce.co.nz/i/ju3spbwu.qhk.jpg
I set the barrel back up in the lathe and made up a vmax dummy round of 39.5mm COAL which was a happy medium of getting the 40gr V-max boat tail off the powder and up into the neck to shoulder junction and the 40gr flat base Blitzking with still at least 3/4 of the neck engaged.
This meant pushing the lands forward 178 thou.
http://iforce.co.nz/i/izvryly2.mjk.jpg
Interestingly it didnt lose any velocity shooting my same V-Max load I tested yesterday only seated further out but the primers did show much less pressure.
Out of curiosity I moved up the charge gradually 0.2gr at a time until I got to a flat primer that looked like my last max load of 13gr of 300MP.
At 13.8gr of 300MP and my longer seated 40gr Vmax it gave me a scorching 3435fps!
Id say a load at 3300fps would be better on brass life so I will have to do some more grouping tests at that speed when I get a chance.
http://iforce.co.nz/i/ona3yd0b.pn4.jpg
I also worked up some 50gr V-Max loads with the slightly slower burning 2205, ADI data shows 11gr of 2205 gave 2500fps with a 50gr in a 24" barrelled .22 hornet so I figured that was a good place to start.
11.0gr of 2205 gave me 2585fps and no pressure signs so I kept bumping up until I got to a full case at 12.0gr (but no longer a compressed load). This gave mild pressure creators at 2708fps.
Ill load a few of those to try on paper too.
It is threads like this one of yours that make this forum valuable.
Very interesting thank you.
This would be a very cool round as a 20 Cal. Not sure I'd go with a 40 degree shoulder just for feeding considerations, maybe 30 degrees and shorten 20 Tactical dies? I have thought about doing a 20 Vartarg but this could be a better option. I have a 20 Tactical reamer and a barrel on the way for itQuote:
Originally Posted by Wingman
Here it is in .20calQuote:
Originally Posted by The Claw
https://preview.ibb.co/h5sZPf/004-zpsc05c0dd7.jpg
I agree that would be a great cal but a bit more faffing around with neck turning and fire forming etc.
Your best bet would be to have a custom reamer made and just open up the top of some Redding .22 TCM dies for a .20cal neck sizing collet.
The case wouldnt fit into any cut down dies as it is the bottom of a .223 rem case so much wider than the top section.
Edit: just found a forum where someone has made one
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27048
This is cool Wingman i thought 221 fireball be wicked but 22tcm looks cooler 😎👍
I suppose I should also mention there's a .17 TCM wildcat
Attachment 98906
17 tcm wildcat...by the time load is worked out and scope zeroed the bore is half way through usefull life/shot count????????? LOL
The barrel life will be many thousand rounds, so unless you are spectacularly poor at load development and sighting in then barrel life shouldn't be a problem!Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
It’s only burning 11-13gr of powder so barrel heating/firecracking in the throat won't be a big problem like with big capacity overbore rounds
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Youd be surprised.. reports are of very low barrel heat, I can tell you first from my .22 TCM that this is the case. Even firing 20 or 30 rounds in quick chrono sessions the barrel is barely warm to the touch. The suppressor has yet to get hot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Other than general bore wear from friction I dont think throat flame erosion will be an issue in the TCM.
Id say the 17 TCM will run parallels with the .17 hornet much like the .22TCM does with 22 hornet.
shouldve gone fishing this morning.just knew you fellas would bite at that one LOL.
years back I remember reading an article on .17 wildcats (back before they were normal and decent barrels were being made) craziest one I read of was a .17/06 guy shot all manner of beasties with it...highly un efficent .
:DWhile .17 cals have never been my thing and Id be the last guy to defend their performance, you did prompt me to document the lack of barrel heat I had noted in my TCM that Id forgotten to mention..
The round count in my Shilen is now 80 rounds and I have two very good loads sorted also tested 5 powders 4 bullets and 4 primers. (not all of which I documented)
While that is at the higher end of "normal" round count for developing a load, bare in mind there is very little info out there in regards to shooting this pistol round in a rifle with varmint projectiles.
This was always going to be a experimental toy for me and now I have good reliable safe loads that cycle reliably, Ill continue to dabble with heavier projectiles etc while putting it to use on the bunnies in my spare time.
Hopefully this write up will save others who load this cal a lot of time and resources setting up their own TCM rifle.
I dont think I have ever clicked on the "like" button so much as I have on this thread. :thumbsup:
A little windy this arvo but put the new longer faster loads on paper.
40gr Hornady V-Max at 3400fps
https://preview.ibb.co/izuHfL/20181117-145311.jpg
40gr Sierra Blitzking at 3400fps
https://preview.ibb.co/nHhsEf/20181117-145126.jpg
The groups opened up slightly at that velocity so went back to 3150fps to make sure it wasnt the longer lands, they didnt disappoint and cut nice ragged holes again.
https://preview.ibb.co/ivaUuf/20181117-145343.jpg
I also loaded up 5 of the 50gr vmax but they didnt shoot well at all. I might have to try them in the 1-12" twist barrel.
https://preview.ibb.co/duM8n0/20181117-145315.jpg
Lovely group at 3150 but I would be very tempted at 3400 fps but I suppose little targets at long range need tiny groups. I still need one of these.
@Brian This is what you need to rechamber your little Sako seal gun to, see if that spare Mab barrel will fit the little sako action and get it done.
Not a lot to report on the TCM adventure other than Im loving this cartridge and Im having a lot of fun with it.
I spotted a hare out on my hillside this evening and rushed in to grab it. Id been messing about with the .223 barrel on the 527 action so it wasnt set up for a quick shot..
I thought Id take my chances anyway so as quick as I could I swapped the .223rem barrel out with the .22 TCM barrel, refitted the VX1 scope, threw on the bipod, suppressor and switched out the magazine.. loaded five 40gr V-max rounds into the mag as I walked back out to the BBQ table..
He was still up there soaking up the last of the sunshine, I ranged him at 230 yards so held a couple of inches over and let one fly..
bullet entered the chest front on and exited the rear leg which was just hanging on by skin. Not as messy as the last one hit side on but I could feel the insides were just pulp, most of which found its way out the exit wound when I picked it up.
Did I say I love this cartridge?
https://preview.ibb.co/fAwUcA/20181124-191915.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/kA6jAV/20181124-191807.jpg
