Hawkins 45cal Black Powder project

have the odd project lying about

an L42 rebuild, a Lovells pattern carbine (NZ Marked) that needs some love, a couple of old muskets that need to have their fate decided on and this!

a loverly Hawkins that ive some time ago fixed the stock and then put away, needs some work and a mold to start casting from!

found this post on another forum

.45 barrel, 32" long, 1" across, .45 bore, .459 groove, 6 lands. 1:22 for 350 and 450 grain bullets, 1:40 for 300 grain bullets and round ball.
.38 barrel, 1:18, 270 grain bullet.
.58 barrel, 1:66 for round ball only.

Ive the 32inch barrel but im a little confused with the 270.40 marking on the barrel, is that the optimal projectile weight for the rate of twist?

if so does anyone have a similar beast and what are they using for molds? loads etc........ im a little new to BP rifles!

@Marty Henry @Micky Duck @Maca49 thought you might like this

Like button has disappeared
But i do like this

Well it looks like a cross over light conical and ball muzzleloader

If you can find a mold I can cast you anything
You need to use pure lead
Don't try wheel weights or stuff like that as too hard to expand and grip the rifling

I have a 50 cal so can't help with molds but you should be able to find .45s easy enough

@akaroa1 thanks, ive a few 100 kgs of lead here , along with a lube sizer, RCBS pro melt etc, ive a few cals i cast for! i guess i need to take it apart again and slug the bore? then casts a mold and size it to a thou or two over the size of the bore, ive a 457 socom mold somewhere? and a few 45cal pistol molds but not sure how they would go!

wait to you see the musket projects ;)

Im GUESSING its a .40 calibre that likes 270 grain projectiles???
I buy my .45 cal cast projectiles from Shootersnz....

LOVELY RIFLE I am envious.

@Micky Duck yeah i had the same thought, then i got the old micrometer out and........

Attachment 125674

maybe 40 grns of black,behind 270 grn projectile...heck that owuld almost have to be a round ball /mini wouldnt it to get that light???
where are the black powder gurus who KNOW about these things????

@Tertle
You don't need to size muzzleloader projectiles
The conicals driving bands are smaller at the heel and their diameter increases towards the front of the projectile.
Thats so you can start it concentric in the bore easily on the first band and they get progressively tighter to start as you force it in.
The heel expands under ignition pressure and grips the riflling and seals in the gas, with the help of the lube.
If you size them they will be either drop in too easily or be very hard to start square into the bore

The Lee REAL .45 muzzleloader mold will get you started and they come in a few weights for each caliber.
Depending on what you want to do with it that might be all you need unless you are going after big game

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

maybe 40 grns of black,behind 270 grn projectile...heck that owuld almost have to be a round ball /mini wouldnt it to get that light???
where are the black powder gurus who KNOW about these things????

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.45 round ball is 138 grains

.50 round ball is 178 grains my hunting conicals are more than twice the weight of the round balls

so my good man WHAT DOES the 270.40 mean????

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

so my good man WHAT DOES the 270.40 mean????

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Well it's unlikely to be 1:40 shown that way.

So my pick is 270 grain conical with a 40 grain load of FFG
Seems a light load so might have been set up to the requirements of who ever ordered it from Tony Hawkins
Maybe a good target load that doesn't beat you up.

I use 80 grains FFFG behind a 395 grainer in my 50 cal.
Hence why i think its a light target or small game load.

I use FFFG because my barrel is only 25"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

so my good man WHAT DOES the 270.40 mean????

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lol im still scratching my head too!

so just went out to man cave, found the following selection of 45's

Attachment 125676
Attachment 125677
@akaroa1 thanks for that i was thinking as the bulk of my 45 cal molds except for a webley are not hollow based to allow and are a little over .45, if i remember rightly .455 .46 .462 was thinking if i slug the bore and then size to say a couple of thou over bore size i wouldn't stuff and driving bands?

but as you can see ive a fair bit of size / weight to tinker around with!

owwwww of back to man cave......powder time, what do i have????

Here is a boolit produced by a genuine Tony Hawkins mould. When you purchased one of his rifles you usually purchased his mould as well.
My cousin shot very successfully in BP comps with a Tony Hawkins Hawken. The pictured boolit is one of his. Tony also supplied him a short length of barrel cut from his barrel which was machiined with a lead to allow him to presize his projectiles. IIRC my cousin seated a hard card wad over the powder and then seated the boolit.

I don't know what twist his barrel was.

The same boolit I used in my Martini-Henry also very successfully. I paper patched.

Attachment 125678

500.5 grains.

For a while I shot one of Tony's muzzleloaders in 38 cal.

@Tertle

The right hand side second from the bottom are Lee REAL Rifling engraved at loading Hence REAL
They are for muzzleloaders

What do they weigh ?
Lube them, stuff in 40 grains of FFG throw one down the bore, stick a cap on and give it a go

Maybe not if you live in town though !

Measure the twist rate with a rod and patch. I suspect 1:40 will be the twist rate. He made conical moulds that were short for calibre for his rifles that engraved on loading like lees real ones do. I never owned one of his muzzle loaders but did have a martini barrelled by him in 45/70 that was quite nice. 40 grains of 2 or 3 would blow it out of the barrel ok but 60 would probably be better. A 45 cal mine could be worth trying but his moulds and the Lee reals are flat base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

@Tertle

The right hand side second from the bottom are Lee REAL Rifling engraved at loading Hence REAL
They are for muzzleloaders

What do they weigh ?
Lube them, stuff in 40 grains of FFG throw one down the bore, stick a cap on and give it a go

Maybe not if you live in town though !

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sadly it would appear they are .583....bugger! think i grabbed that mold so i would have an excuse to get another one later!! i have the 577 snider mould somewhere as well, but i digress......

just taken the barrel off not prepared to try and get the "plug" off, so might have to get someone to have a crack at that,

Attachment 125679
and the powder i have is ...........


Attachment 125680

and yeah this is a 58cal

Attachment 125681

so i need a 45 cal REAL mold, i also need to get a solid ram rod as well as this one i wouldn't swat flies with it feels so flimsy!

The 45 real is a nominal 250 grains and should be what you are after.
That thing looks unused, 3f swiss will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

The 45 real is a nominal 250 grains and should be what you are after.
That thing looks unused, 3f swiss will be fine.

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it was a friends, they were rather vague how they came into possession of it, they were told it was unsafe to fire due the split in the stock, just in behind where the barrel rebates into, so they were going to get rid of it, i said id have a crack at fixing it and they just said, no keep it, i don't think they ever fired it, ive fixed the wood, and am happy with that, its got a stunning trigger and loverly rear sights, it just honestly needs to be shot and enjoyed!!!!

Nice rifles, I’d say 1:40 twist 270 grain projectile, you’ll need more than 45 grains of powder to make it enjoyable!! 3f will be fine. You can’t put to much powder in, it will just waste it out the barrel. Pure lead projectile will bump up into the rifling when you pull the trigger!!
Never owned a Hawkins, maybe one day

oh to have friends like that,,,,score of the century.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maca49

Nice rifles, I’d say 1:40 twist 270 grain projectile, you’ll need more than 45 grains of powder to make it enjoyable!! 3f will be fine. You can’t put to much powder in, it will just waste it out the barrel. Pure lead projectile will bump up into the rifling when you pull the trigger!!
Never owned a Hawkins, maybe one day

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ok here's a thought, possibly miles off, ive a 259gr hollow based projectile for a .455 webley???? im going to be honest, at this weight, its a glorified pistol projectile ? ive put away the 417gr and manly looking 506gr behemoth!

the projectile has driving bands at differing diameters, also it has the hollow base to expand and act as a gas seal? thoughts?

If it's the correct diameter try it would be my suggestion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tertle

ok here's a thought, possibly miles off, ive a 259gr hollow based projectile for a .455 webley???? im going to be honest, at this weight, its a glorified pistol projectile ? ive put away the 417gr and manly looking 506gr behemoth!

the projectile has driving bands at differing diameters, also it has the hollow base to expand and act as a gas seal? thoughts?

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Pure lead? Size it to the bore, doesn’t have to be precise if you just want to bang it, pure lead will bump up and gas seal if it’s a firm fit,
Hollow bases are good as they grab the rifling and seal. I’d start with 50 of ffg and see what happens. Make sure there are NO air gaps between the powder and the projectile, No1 rule of Black Powder, never forget it. Ram it home well and use the rod as a measuring stick, so you know it’s at the correct position
Lube the projectile well to soften the residue in the barrel, mop it out between shots as it’s a small calibre.
Cap off before the first shot to clear and dry the air ways

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Originally Posted by mimms2

Those are Vernier Calipers. They lack the resolution of a micrometer proper.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micrometer

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Thats as maybe but it's still a frog. In this context if you can stuff it down the front to load it then it will as sure as hell blow out when fired assuming you remembered to put the powder in first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tertle

ok here's a thought, possibly miles off, ive a 259gr hollow based projectile for a .455 webley???? im going to be honest, at this weight, its a glorified pistol projectile ? ive put away the 417gr and manly looking 506gr behemoth!

the projectile has driving bands at differing diameters, also it has the hollow base to expand and act as a gas seal? thoughts?

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worth a crack Nigel....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mimms2

Those are Vernier Calipers. They lack the resolution of a micrometer proper.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micrometer

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Yes your right! Hence why reluctance to ask how to “glue” this back on lol

Attachment 125779

Funny thing is I recall taking it apart and finding the part the rod goes into and not giving it a second thought, but at about 1am in the morning the thought fairy came along and sprinkled thinking dust on me and it dawned on me.....sorta like an argh bugger moment! A bit like when @akaroa1 beat you to a bloody good sale on moulds,

So I’m going to use a all covering term “glue” and ask how the bugger am I going to reattach the tubey go rod thingy on to the barrel go bang thing.......can’t use duct tape as the key goes through the gap between the two bits holding it to the stock ( just joking about the tape!)

Was the rod ferrule used as the key shoulder and is the ferrule hidden inside the stock ?

So it was brazed and I guess that wasn't quite strong enough
I would bore through both ends of the ferrule and tap a small countesunk screw into the barrel at each end only in the edge against the barrel.
There would be 2 small holes at the top visible for the screw drive to go in through.
3 or 4 full threads and some locktite and it will be better than new
You just need to be careful not to leave any screw head to bind up against the ram rod when it goes in