Sand Casting. Who's done / doing it ?

Just wondered who among us is up to speed on sand casting or actually doing it ?

Something I doubt I will get a chance to learn to do in this lifetime, but keen to find out who does it to make small gun parts or have the skills to make small gun parts.
Simple shapes and around 60x30x20mm and want to be cast in mild or low carbon steel

I will be visiting a Casting Shop in CHCH Wednesday to follow this up with them and get a ball park price on a couple of parts I need replicated reasonably urgently.
I need to find out shrinkage rates from original parts and how complex the parts can be.
I'm guessing you can blank out any negative details that wouldn't un mould from the sand.

I've been dealing with a company in the UK who do make some of the parts I want but they aren't intending making a run for some time and then there is the whole Gun Parts are dangerous thing and permits etc.
Cost is not the issue but timeliness is.
I've been dealing with the UK guys for 6 months and got nowhere

Now want to get these projects back on track

We used to do it at college, only in Aluminium and no double happys, had a coal gas/oxygen furnace, made out of a small fire bricked lined drum.
Black sand, wet enough to bind, in two boxes, like a sandwich seperate with a sprinkling of dry white sand.

There was a very comprehensive article in the Shed mag a while back. I've done a little of it, but nothing complicated - and nothing critical on shrinkage as it was all needing to be machined after.

It was pretty much all as Maca suggested, two sand boxes with 'green' sand just damp enough to stick and two split forms.

The Shed mag article was good in that it discussed lost wax casting, which if done right can get better and more accurately cast results. I'd look into that and go from there maybe? And I won't mention that the last thing I cast in sand was a castle a few weeks ago haha.

A former workmate of mine has a wax 3D printer that prints directly in wax ready for use in investment casting. I know he gets lots cast in silicone bronze but I think he gets some ferous castings done too. If that's something that could be of use I'll try to dig out his details for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by No good names left

A former workmate of mine has a wax 3D printer that prints directly in wax ready for use in investment casting. I know he gets lots cast in silicone bronze but I think he gets some ferous castings done too. If that's something that could be of use I'll try to dig out his details for you.

---

I'm up to speed on printed lost wax

Want to understand sand because I can copy existing parts that i don't want to wreck

I wonder if plaster of paris may be usefully for this.... Same sandwich idea but a more permanent mold.

I did my trade as a molder greensand moulder
Then things changed to hardsand but I've been out of that game for many years now.
Shrinkage rates is more a pattern maker and I'm sure there is someone on here that was a pattern maker.
There is still a few foundry's around I know of 1 in Wanganui and Palmerston North as well.
When you are trying to cast iron or steel it's not really a back yard job.

Sent from my CPH2531 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I wonder if plaster of paris may be usefully for this.... Same sandwich idea but a more permanent mold.

---

Sand is easy to work and just vent to let the air out and prevent pressure, worse was breaking up the WW2 aero engine parts to fit the crucible. We’d heat it with oxy/acetylene and smash it with a sledge hammer. Had a guy lose an eye with a flying bit. Teacher did it after that, in full kit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 25/08 IMP

I did my trade as a molder greensand moulder
Then things changed to hardsand but I've been out of that game for many years now.
Shrinkage rates is more a pattern maker and I'm sure there is someone on here that was a pattern maker.
There is still a few foundry's around I know of 1 in Wanganui and Palmerston North as well.
When you are trying to cast iron or steel it's not really a back yard job.

Sent from my CPH2531 using Tapatalk

---

I did School holiday work and then the first part of my NZCE sitting on a big lathe at AF Martins, when it was on Main street. Turning all the recently cast iron bits hot out of the foundry into machined parts. Whenever I could, I would go and watch the pattern makers filling the boxes, vibrating them then standing on the wooden forms to impress them into the sand. Was quite a cool process to watch. But bloody dirty. And even dirtier to machine cast iron all day long. The old timers with 10 plus years on a lathe just turning mind numbing quantities of cast iron were just one big black stained humans. Coming to work on a Monday morning they were still covered in black creases:XD:

I've made a few patterns and helped a bit during the casting stage but only with ally and bronze... Ally shrinks around 2% and bronze nearer to 4 or 5 % .not sure about steel though. some of the bronze alloys are stronger than mild steel and can be heat treated to be much stronger again - is bronze out of the question? are you able to put a photo of the part up

Yip I work in foundry's for the best part 20 years covered in iron dust and black from the sand dust knocking out the castings once poured.
A real dirty job but some of the things I made were pretty cool.
From parts for Rolls-Royce cars to bollards for Super Yachts.

Sent from my CPH2531 using Tapatalk

I worked for a pattern maker years ago and we had shrinkage rules specific to the material the pattern was being made for.

The shrinkage rate for cast steel is roughly 2% but I would go to 2.5-3% to allow a finishing margin as sand casting leaves a rough finish. If you are using an original part as a pattern, it would be best to tape it all over to allow for shrinkage. Large flat surfaces also need some extra as they tend to shrink in the middle a bit leaving a hollow surface.

A bloke on another forum cast a reloading g press in alluminium. Come up very good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oldbloke

A bloke on another forum cast a reloading g press in alluminium. Come up very good.

---

Yeah I cast a few for a guy out of cast iron a few years back.
I was meat to get a finished one for payment but I'm still waiting

Sent from my CPH2531 using Tapatalk

I had a great meeting with the Casting guy yesterday.

I'm just going to throw a whole lot of money at it and get the professionals to cast all the hammers I want from the fragments of the originals I have.

It's a process I want to understand so the best way is to get it all to a guy who's been doing it for over 50 years and learn from the best
Looks to be a multi generation business and hopefully he has taught plenty of others to carry on doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaroa1

I had a great meeting with the Casting guy yesterday.

I'm just going to throw a whole lot of money at it and get the professionals to cast all the hammers I want from the fragments of the originals I have.

It's a process I want to understand so the best way is to get it all to a guy who's been doing it for over 50 years and learn from the best
Looks to be a multi generation business and hopefully he has taught plenty of others to carry on doing it.

---

Smart decision by the sounds of it, look forward to some updates

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaroa1

I had a great meeting with the Casting guy yesterday.

I'm just going to throw a whole lot of money at it and get the professionals to cast all the hammers I want from the fragments of the originals I have.

It's a process I want to understand so the best way is to get it all to a guy who's been doing it for over 50 years and learn from the best
Looks to be a multi generation business and hopefully he has taught plenty of others to carry on doing it.

---

A mate of mind has boxes of that shit, if your into bulk buying, I could ask

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaroa1

I had a great meeting with the Casting guy yesterday.

I'm just going to throw a whole lot of money at it and get the professionals to cast all the hammers I want from the fragments of the originals I have.

It's a process I want to understand so the best way is to get it all to a guy who's been doing it for over 50 years and learn from the best
Looks to be a multi generation business and hopefully he has taught plenty of others to carry on doing it.

---

And the questions” When will you know you’ve got the part?”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maca49

And the questions” When will you know you’ve got the part?”

---

Once the stage is all set

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maca49

And the questions” When will you know you’ve got the part?”

---

Hope the casting couch was comfortable

Um, the internet has ruined a few of you guys I reckon. I had to think about that - I've met with the casting guy; how do you know when you've got the part; hammered on the casting couch. Jeez!

Only need to work in the vent holes in the sand...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 25/08 IMP

Yeah I cast a few for a guy out of cast iron a few years back.
I was meat to get a finished one for payment but I'm still waiting

Sent from my CPH2531 using Tapatalk

---

That's sh1t. Happens all the time.

Bit like borrowing tools and not returning them.

I drilled into the broken hammer and glued in two short drill rods as support for fiber reinforced filler.

Filed and sanded to match the complete right hammer and ready to go to the casters for two complete L & R sets

Attachment 255457

Attachment 255458

looks the bit bloke
i do a bit of casting but only in bronze

Finally got my replacement copied investment casting hammers

Pretty happy with the quality and price

Fitted up on the better of the two double barrel pistols
Still have to brown the other barrels and all 4 hammers when I'm done

Attachment 268419

Attachment 268420

Why didn't you say you were just doing hammer spurs in the first place? I have been doing them for years with oxy-acetylene (Tig would be better but I don't have one). Just clean up the area of the break to clean steel then slowly build up the spur with filler rod and the gas, puddling it well to ensure a pure steel fill. Once generously built up then file, grind and polish to shape, checker the spur, case harden if desired, and he presto! good to go. I have attached a photo of one I did just before Christmas on an antique pistol in my collection.Attachment 268430

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gundoc

Why didn't you say you were just doing hammer spurs in the first place? I have been doing them for years with oxy-acetylene (Tig would be better but I don't have one). Just clean up the area of the break to clean steel then slowly build up the spur with filler rod and the gas, puddling it well to ensure a pure steel fill. Once generously built up then file, grind and polish to shape, checker the spur, case harden if desired, and he presto! good to go. I have attached a photo of one I did just before Christmas on an antique pistol.Attachment 268430

---

I needed two full sets because some were broken below the necks

Attachment 268431

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaroa1

Attachment 268431

---

One of the pistols looks to have been used as a child's toy
Both nipples were out of it and the hammers were hitting the nipple fence.
Massively peened down the metal and broke a left and right hammer neck.

Still a lot to do but a bit closer to being at least visually correct

Attachment 268432

Yes, definitely a new hammer job. I have made a few replacement hammers from solid stock but very time consuming and only worth it for the really expensive guns. Flintlock hammers are much more work than percussion, being usually much more ornate shapes. I tried to get some investment cast hammer blanks from a dealer in the north of England a few years ago and he was absolutely hopeless to deal with, Peter Dyson I think. A nice pair of pistols and well worth the effort. The hammer spur job I showed is an Osborne O&U pistol but I still have much to make (a full set of springs and a restocking job).

Well I needed two lefts and two rights. So four of these
And I needed a Whitworth hammer copied for another percussion rifle project.

So I just asked them to cast me 2 left, 2 right and 2 Whitworth.

The 6 hammers cost me $500
And they made a few spares from the extra waxes they had made.

I'm very happy with them and I learned a lot in the process.

So in the future for parts like this that I can borrow an original or model a mock up, I will certainly be doing it again

The effort in making 6 hammers is many times more than $500!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gundoc

The effort in making 6 hammers is many times more than $500!

---

Yeah that's why I wanted to give this a try

It would take $500 of time to make one

The attached photo shows a smoothbore flintlock duelling pistol that was made entirely in my workshop by the 'whittling' process from steel bars and a block of wood. With the exception of a bit of milling on the lockplate and bridle, a few holes with the drill press and some lathe work, everything was done by hand with hacksaw, files and small cold chisels. I did some of the machine work but all the design and handwork was done by the late Jon Jones, a Holland & Holland trained artisan who worked for me for a few years. The photo shows the complete assembly prior to engraving and browning. Jon was an incredible tradesman and a skilled self-taught engraver who died far too young. He sold the pistol to someone before he died but I don't know who. Jon engraved a .38 S&W Model 60 stainless Chief's Special for me which I will show in another post. Jon spent 11 years with H&H as an actioner on double guns, hand making ejectors, single trigger mechanisms, etc. When he came to work for me I asked him if he had ever fitted a 'scope. "I've never even looked through one" was the reply!Attachment 268824

Not only is the fantasy cock and frizzen beautifully made, but if you study the pan you can see that the pan, fence and frizzen mount are all from one piece of steel. I hate to think how many hours I paid him for, working on it when my back was turned!

Wow!

I worked for ten years as senior technician at Masport Foundry. We did all types of cast iron. Grey, ductile, Ni hard, Hi chrome, semi, in green and hard sand. As you have worked out investment casting is the go for this type of work. The fine detail is not possible with green or hard sand.

In Auckland, Supreme Steel is a place worth talking to for this type of work. They do investment in steel and stainless. Sadly, not a lot of ferrous foundries left.