Thread: Ulrich Bretscher's SMOKELESS BLACK POWDER & HANDGONNE web page. Re-found!

Originally Posted by canross

Thanks Cordite! I see what you're saying around the comparison of his two home made powders.

I think I usually write too much without being very clear - what I was trying to say (poorly) was I was curious about whether the sulphurless BP would behave the same was as sulphur based BP when compressed as part of the manufacturing process. You can make BP without pressing into pucks before graining it into Fg, FFG, FFFG etc, but you'll get a very light fluffy powder. Pressing into pucks then corning it down to the appropriate grain size gives you a "standard" powder. I have no idea what that standard is, but it seems like there is one. Again, I haven't done it, just read about it.

I didn't see Ulrich's write-up mention compressing his powder so that the mass (1 gr) matched whatever the accepted "standard" density of BP is, which apparently affects burn rate (from what I've read: as powder density increases from pressing, burn rate decreases). In that way I suspect that home made powders by their nature are faster burning than commercial powders because they are lower density, but at the cost of being less robust and bulkier.
Since we have powder measures that have volumetric graduations, and most countries historically used volumetric measurements for their powders, there must be some sort of accepted density for powders that most current commercial companies follow where they can say that X weight of BP equals Y Volume of BP. I know historically that exact density varied between countries, but within one area of standardization (military, country, region, alliance) they tried to keep that density fairly consistent so one batch of powder wouldn't be significantly stronger or weaker at a given charge volume than another (though it did happen as angry letters from supply agents to powder mills and officials demonstrate).

If the whole "density increase=burn rate decrease" thing is correct, then I'm curious if the two powders (sulphur and sulphurless) might behave the same or differently when compressed as part of manufacturing. Might be that the sulphurless stuff burns faster than its sulphur counterpart when compressed, or maybe it burns slower, or maybe compression doesn't affect it any differently than its identically treated sulphur-using counterpart. Maybe it's even harder to ignite when compressed, maybe it's easier. I'd assume that it would continue to be 10% less powerful in compressed form than its sulphur counterpart.... but maybe it isn't? If there wasn't a significant decrease in performance it would at bare minimum mean you could use your standard volumetric powder measure to measure loads with your muzzle loader and not have to offset your charge weight because it was a sulfurless powder.

Anyways, that's me rambling. It would make a fun experiment I guess is what I'm trying to say at the end of it all.

Yes, lots of unknowns. Sadly... I don't think anyone on this forum will invest in a 30 ton pressure BP mill to find out. This is the commercial powder difference.

Anyway Bretscher found that, by weight his homemade sulfur BP was more powerful than Swiss commercially milled powder! The dense commercial kernels help get a lot more charge into a fixed cartridge space but does not seem to make the best out of the powder otherwise. This is good news for muzzle loaders who want to make their own powder as they don't have to make compromises. They can load by weight. And if you want to load subsonic loads you might even get enough into a cartridge case!

Got a tin of sulfur free BP sitting there and some of shooternz's 212 grain .303 boolits, life on the range is going to be good post-lockdown, but I must remember to bring a cleaning rod... (O:

@Coote

Well how interesting thanks Micky.

I recall reading somewhere that New Zealand's own native Mahoe (whitey wood) was once used to make charcoal for powder manufacturing.

It is interesting that Mahoe is also said to be one of the woods used by the Maori to make fire. I've used it successfully as a bow drill hearth to create embers.

Ive "heard" that charcoal made from totara....like the one growing in my front yard....makes great charcoal but will take much longer to burn down in tin can...and BP made with said totara charcoal weighs heavier than BP made with willows ...like the ones growing in river down the road...wink wink.

if you look at properties of willow for burning....burns quickly,sparks a bit,clean ash,very light in weight
totara is similar but I believe TAWA would be very very similar to willow...unfortunately tawa isnt down here in south canterbury.

Cant recall for sure, but I think I've heard that grape vines make good charcoal for the purpose. And all this has got me thinking about producing your own potassium nitrate. I recall hearing/reading that urine and wood ash were part of the process. So I just looked it up and came across this simple description: Science Minus Details: Why Pee is Cool - entry #3 - "Explosive Urination" or "Gunpowder Comes from Pee!!!"

read what mr B says about it....really interesting site

Originally Posted by mimms2

Yup. The hay from barns is an easy source, pre soaked in horse/cow piss.
You can of course grow your own.

Urine also used in tanning fish skins.
Amazing now how much time, effort and enrrgy society spends "dealing with waste" what was once considered a resource...

I've been to piss farms in Canada where pregnant Mares are kept in stalls and their piss collected. Wonder if any have blown up lately ?

Off topic but pregnant mares urine is used to make PMGS pregnant mare gonadotropin serum used in artifical insemination to synchronise ovulation.

I did read somewhere that one of the commercial BP substitutes, 777 I think it was used a complex sugar like mannitol that contains a significant amount of oxygen already as part of the fuel along with the charcoal.

Originally Posted by mimms2

"rocket candy" is made with plain ol' table sugar,and gives a bit bit of lift...

The favourite sweetener of the PLO in the Gaza strip

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

The favourite sweetener of the PLO in the Gaza strip

Fascinating to see all that hatred fueling such creativity. Maybe they'd do better drinking it in some nice coffee glasses while watching the sunrise.

Originally Posted by mimms2

Maybe they'd do better if they didn't have one of the most well funded military Industrial complexes' jackboot on their neck enforcing the unlawful occupation of Palestinian territory.

It's like the school jock beating on a nerd. A completely stacked "fight"

Yes, you do get what I talk about. Hating so much you continue a futile fight, passing it on to your children too.

And the nerd keeps on going back to that fight. He has Isbergerlam syndrome and so has only one tune in his whistle when it comes to Jews.

Originally Posted by mimms2

I don't have much time in my life for hate. Conscientious direction of the other, though.

Palestine "go back to the fight"??? for THEIR land... as opposed to what? capitulate and accept genocide from the zionista?

Perhaps your memory doesn't go back past, what, 1917? When Israel didn't exist...

Palestine was a roman name, used for a larger region than ancient israel, including what we call jordan now for example. Funny though that jordan has not been that accommodating of arab palestinian refugees.

Have you considered that Jews have lived in that country for thousands of years? Call those Jewish palestinians. Jews also lived throughout the middle east but were expelled, or should we say inspelled, to Israel and were accommodated. Arabs that moved the other way were deliberately non-assimilated into their destinations to keep the issue / the hatred alive. If you watch Al Jazeera you may there learn some extra facts about the plight of Palestinians in the Lebanon for example. Palestinians in the Lebanon are not allowed to own real estate. So, sure, there is a Palestinian arab issue, but it's as much palestinian arabs vs other arabs as palestinian arabs vs the all-powerful Zionistas.

Being back to those Israelis, they make great stuff, be it cool qualiware guns to rockets to tanks and medical hardware, let's at least agree on that. (-:

Originally Posted by mimms2

Yup. The hay from barns is an easy source, pre soaked in horse/cow piss.
You can of course grow your own.

Urine also used in tanning fish skins.
Amazing now how much time, effort and enrrgy society spends "dealing with waste" what was once considered a resource...

As an aside, waaay back in pre Charles Dickens days small children used to collect dog poo to rub into leather to soften it..a great job if you were nursing a hangover from hell!