Another Hunter Killed

Condolences to the family, such a waste.
Thoughts are also with the SAR guys, who have to camp out with him and who can't do what they do best - find and rescue people.

I reckon a HUNTS course should be a mandatory part of getting a FAL. It may be partly flawed but it's all we have.

We make learner drivers and restricted drivers pass tests and get supervised driving hours, why not hunters that can't demonstrate the equivalent hunting experience of a HUNTS course?

My mantra is:
1. I must be able to see ALL of the deer
2. I must be able to identify what type of deer it is - spiker, hind, Stag
3. I must be able to evaluate what is behind the deer for a safe firing zone

If i see an animal on the skyline - no shot

Not sure a course would be overly effective unless run by the army who will punch people who fuk up so they learn from their mistakes. You need to do two practicals to get a car licence but plenty of people still drive like idiots.

this problem will not stop!To many hunters are like newbee Chinese drivers but with a gun.
Its a hunters culture problem -even down to mountain safety officers --people don't take the rules seriously,

I wish all the money police spent on the arms amendment bill went towards a tv ad to remind people of the 7 firearms rules. If the shooter had seen a tv ad the night before similar to the car ones maybe it would have made him think twice before pulling the trigger.


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That dosnt happen these days,they teach by repitition.The right people for the job can be anyone!so long as they believe in firearm safety thats all you need.

What am I going to do...

1st I'm going to sit Blake and Alex down again tonight and talk about this... It's mate shooting mates not some random guy shooting another hunter. These people knew there was another person on the hill that which makes it so dam much worse.

What am I going to tell them and myself ... STOP & THINK!! what am I shooting at what part am I shooting head neck shoulder heart and if I dont bloody know dont shoot. Also that there is no place for bravado or muchco crap with hunting the "if its brown its down or if it fly it dies etc bull shit has no place in hunting.

That we all have to stop and think ..my mates is out there somewhere could this possibly be him.

No snap shots from rabbits ducks goats everything eithier let it go or a 100% shot.

I ask that we as a hunting community do the same 1000 of us with the same message, we can change laws etc but like drink driving speeding drugs etc laws mean bugger all to some ,so it becomes down to us and our attiude. I'm taking this message to my son & his best friend and myself so the we do not ever end up in this situation.. not hope and pray ,I am going to make but make bloody sure that we won't.

As I've said I'm not perfect but what I can do is make sure 100%.

A tv add would be good. Get it to the masses. My kids cant learn a thing at school but stick it on tv and theyll have it memorised in minutes.

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Guys, this article provides the most information currently available to the public that I have found so far on this latest accidental shooting. Shock after accidental hunting death - National - NZ Herald News

"We" need to rise to the "challenge" set by Tussock.

One point I would make is that there is a big difference between knowing the 7 basic rules of firearm safety and actually practicing them correctly.

I think that a HUNTS course (based on articles I have read about peoples experience on them and on the premise and structure of the course) addresses the practical aspects of the "7 basics", but even then will that translate to the "real world" reality of hunting, 5 years later, with "buck fever' thrown in?

I naturally resist a call to "compulsory this or that", until there is evidence it will actually have a benefit.

Playing the devils advocate here, in the last 2 high profile bush shootings, the guy pulling the trigger is not who you would expect to make such a mistake.

#1. Christopher Dummer, a former president of the Wellington Deerstalkers' Association.
#2. Henry Worsp, an experienced hunter and fisherman who is known by the nickname "8-shot" and has more than 10 years' experience managing outdoor safety.

I believe good practical instruction on the "7 Basics", with scenario based teaching, is just ONE part of the solution. We also ALL need to practice the 7 Basics correctly, EVERY TIME we are around firearms.

This event has galvanised me to complete a HUNTS course as soon as I can.

Firearm safety starts with us. Knowing right from wrong is not enough, we need to practice the right way all the time, and ensure others around us do as well.

What do people think about a forum section devoted to firearm safety? I would envisage that it had a sticky with the seven basic rules and links to suitable literature on safely identifying your target. I would also suggest considering incorporating a HUNTS course calender with up coming courses and how to apply (obviously this would need to be agreed with by NZDA).

Finally, my thoughts on this latest shooting accident:

This is a terrible accident, tragic for all involved and a spine tingling reminder that you can't be too careful, either behind the trigger or "in front of" the barrel.

I have sympathy for the guy who pulled the trigger. That would be my worst nightmare.

Be careful out there. Sounds like the hunting community lost a real good bloke. It doesn't need to loose anymore.

Cheers, Carl

Carl, +1 about the safety section in the forum. Love it.

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Originally Posted by CreepingDeath

Cant fucken believe this shits keeps happening . For some fucken venison. Wake up people , this literally was in my back yard . The access to the bush there was across my old farm. Ive taken my kids for walks in there , makes me feel fucken sick.

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Same here Creeping Death i am at the northern end of the reserve, were you down by Puaiti rd? i hunt up by the tower can get there through Mc Naulls Place but it is to steep for most people so pretty much have the place to myself, you get heaps of pig hunters along here pouching on Doc land, didnt sleep to good last night knowing i hunt this area and that just happened cant help but think what would happen to my wife and kids if i was shot while out getting a feed for the freezer, a hands on coarse for firearms licence holders is a must not one evening with the mountain safety council where you are given the answers. i would hate to see it end up restricted like your B cat licence. pop up targets in a safe bush setting with tagets of hunters in blaze orange and camo along with all your wild game targets with part animal targets. it always used to be the nonlicenced person was the demise of our sport through pinching our firearms to them using them on others, well the tide has turned now we are taking ourself out, and we will lose this privledge if we dont sort it out ourselfs. it is far to regular in the news now for it to be an accident.

everyone here gives a shit should we draft a training plan for firearms safety and bushcraft. train everyone in safe operation of a firearm and safe operation in a hunting enviroment along with bushsurvival. and send it on to the aproppriate people.

I think it is a waste of time making anyone join a club or attend safety courses until the very people who advocate these are stopped from killing our fellow hunters. The last two killings have been by people way up at the top...not newbie gunslingers.
The next time I go in the bush I am going to be wearing one of those flashing lights that cyclists use strapped to the back of my head...if some prick takes a shot at me, make sure you kill me because I'll gut shoot you if i get the chance.

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Originally Posted by mucko

Same here Creeping Death i am at the northern end of the reserve, were you down by Puaiti rd? i hunt up by the tower can get there through Mc Naulls Place but it is to steep for most people so pretty much have the place to myself, you get heaps of pig hunters along here pouching on Doc land, didnt sleep to good last night knowing i hunt this area and that just happened cant help but think what would happen to my wife and kids if i was shot while out getting a feed for the freezer, a hands on coarse for firearms licence holders is a must not one evening with the mountain safety council where you are given the answers. i would hate to see it end up restricted like your B cat licence. pop up targets in a safe bush setting with tagets of hunters in blaze orange and camo along with all your wild game targets with part animal targets. it always used to be the nonlicenced person was the demise of our sport through pinching our firearms to them using them on others, well the tide has turned now we are taking ourself out, and we will lose this privledge if we dont sort it out ourselfs. it is far to regular in the news now for it to be an accident.

everyone here gives a shit should we draft a training plan for firearms safety and bushcraft. train everyone in safe operation of a firearm and safe operation in a hunting enviroment along with bushsurvival. and send it on to the aproppriate people.

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The old maxwell.farm that boundries te kopia rd

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As tragic as all of this is, it is provoking alot of thought on the matter of better training for hunters. For the entrepreneurial among you there is a business opportunity in amongst this. It is just a matter of fleshing out the business plan, presenting it to the authorities for approval and piecing it together in a way that honours the unfortunate that have given rise to the need.

I dont think a compulsory hunting course is suitable for all shooters. Some of us will never hunt and only shoot targets, what benefit would they get? No this is stricktly a hunting license issue that may need to come into existance.

Being that this seems to be a psychological effect of the activity of hunting - i see no way to just 'train' your way out of it. Perhaps the way forward is to employ more technology in the field. I mean Jumbo jet pilots dont rely on their eyes to prevent mid air disasters. They use early warning systems and gps etc. Maybe we all should wear an eprb type device that a monitoring station watches over the weekend. When one blip gets within 1 km of another, that blip gets sent a text message. Couldnt an automatic server be set up to produce a simple warning when this happens?

I would just like to say ... the tone in general of the comments on here in relation to this tragedy seem reflective, concerned and empathetic, unlike some of the circus idiots venting elsewhere...:(

I believe the issues raised need our thoughts and require information sharing but calls for deterrent sentencing which can never work, and disturbing attitudes towards the unfortunate shooter have no place in public forums.

We have a lot more interest in Hunting and shooting than was around 20 years ago. Young people getting into it possibly don't have the traditional role models, that supposedly modelled appropriate behaviours for them, because of perhaps a missing generation of hunters from that time...

Some consideration for training may be necessary prior to the granting of DOC hunting permits, dealing with the specific risks and proceedures that are necessary for bush hunting where other people may be present. Maybe some periodic refresher as part of a club system would be a good thing.

I am usually the last person to suggest more beauraucracy for anything, but quite frankly I feel these accidents like a physical blow and it just makes me feel sick..

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Originally Posted by Sidney

but quite frankly I feel these accidents like a physical blow and it just makes me feel sick..

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Isn't it shit that we have to talk about this sort of thing, that is has happened in the first place :( (and twice so recently)

true true dougie,im taking my boy for a hunt for the weeknd next week Im not letting him miss out,you can only do for you and your family.there will be some talented people out there who will make these wishes off working to prevent these acc from happening come to fruition.Mean while im gonna do more hunting than i have to post more in the hunting threads!.

Agreed more training, thing is I feel it won't stop all the killing but just cut back on them. Trouble is no matter what we are taught there will always be mistakes. We all know what its like when you have been stalking around and then "holy shit" movement. Just in case you are wondering I always take care and identify my target beyond a doubt. We folks out there are made of all different types of DNA make up so what works in someones head may not work in others. The rules can be drummed in to you but it only takes one mistake to ruin a lot of peoples lives. So more involved training, refresher courses annually, tougher sentencing laws. Unless we take more care we are going to end up in the shit, no guns, extremely hard rules and worst of all more deaths. Rest in peace James Dodds, hunters and mountain bikers communities are thinking of you and your family.

This is a tragedy. Our thoughts are with the families and friends.
I know the bloke who got shot is a really good bloke though I have never met him.
I do know the shooter and he is an experienced hunter, a bloke with a really good level head on his shoulders; he works in the field of rescue and safety and first aid training; and is a paramedic too. This is quite out of character for him to make such a misjudgement.......he must be going through hell.

I agree to more training. This is happening too often of late.

Heading out for a hunt with a mate today; we are talking about the plan; we will stick to the plan; and will not shoot in the direction of the other -i.e if we follow a ridge line the right shooter will never shoot to the left and visa versa - even if an animal runs from right to left across the right shooters path.
Thought needs to be given as to where will this bullet go if I miss this animal too.

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Originally Posted by Kakaramea

This is a tragedy. Our thoughts are with the families and friends.
I know the bloke who got shot is a really good bloke though I have never met him.
I do know the shooter and he is an experienced hunter, a bloke with a really good level head on his shoulders; he works in the field of rescue and safety and first aid training; and is a paramedic too. This is quite out of character for him to make such a misjudgement.......he must be going through hell.

I agree to more training. This is happening too often of late.

Heading out for a hunt with a mate today; we are talking about the plan; we will stick to the plan; and will not shoot in the direction of the other -i.e if we follow a ridge line the right shooter will never shoot to the left and visa versa - even if an animal runs from right to left across the right shooters path.
Thought needs to be given as to where will this bullet go if I miss this animal too.

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Good on you dude.

Having this a second nature is called experience.

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Originally Posted by Kakaramea

This is a tragedy. Our thoughts are with the families and friends.
I know the bloke who got shot is a really good bloke though I have never met him.
I do know the shooter and he is an experienced hunter, a bloke with a really good level head on his shoulders; he works in the field of rescue and safety and first aid training; and is a paramedic too. This is quite out of character for him to make such a misjudgement.......he must be going through hell.

I agree to more training. This is happening too often of late.

Heading out for a hunt with a mate today; we are talking about the plan; we will stick to the plan; and will not shoot in the direction of the other -i.e if we follow a ridge line the right shooter will never shoot to the left and visa versa - even if an animal runs from right to left across the right shooters path.
Thought needs to be given as to where will this bullet go if I miss this animal too.

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I hear you there, he is in a bad way, they live a couple of doors down from us our wifes know each other though school and my oldest boy plays with his son they are in the same class at school. a truly lovely man that will never ever be the same i know he will have all the support from the community.

I wish people would stop using the words "experienced hunter" when discussing a fuck wit that enters the bush armed and dangerous.

pretty sad all round. really there is no need for it to happen just ID your target every time and make sure that is wot u want to shoot. thats all you need to do. so easy.

Spook the Point here is this guy isn't just a fuckwit with a gun.

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Originally Posted by Spook

I wish people would stop using the words "experienced hunter" when discussing a fuck wit that enters the bush armed and dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Kakaramea

Spook the Point here is this guy isn't just a fuckwit with a gun.

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Then what is he...he has a nick name of "8 shot" [or something like that], I, for one would be interested in knowing why...sounds like some 'lead in the air" type...would have been over the moon, albiet for a very short time, to have finally got a "one shot kill"...or did he clobber his mate with a mag full...I am pleased the bastard will no longer be a danger to other hunters.

We all need to be very clear about this – ANY hunter can make a mistake that can and frequently is fatal to another human.

How can this happen – well it’s our brain interpreting our senses incorrectly.

The easiest way of understanding how it can happen to ANY OF US is to consider why pilots need instruments for flying in cloud or at night. No matter how experienced the pilot, the sensory information being conveyed to their brain is open to misinterpretation. A pilot understands this and their training is to absolutely rely on the instruments – it took a lot of deaths to gain this understanding !!

ALL Hunters MUST understand that the they are capable of making a mistake (of misinterpreting the data) – no matter how experienced they may be – that’s because we don’t have an “instrument” to rely on, only our understanding of our own weakness, and that understanding can prompt us to re-evaluate.

If you are not convinced by the pilot example, exactly the same thing happens to sailors - both amateurs and professionals, they mis-time lights, they hit rocks clearly marked on charts (and chart plotters), because they trust their senses instead of their instruments.

This is the reason I actually feel in more danger (when hunting) when I see many of the comments in these sorts of discussions “it will never happen to me” – my first though is - oh yes it will, and you’d better understand how and why, or it may indeed be you pulling the trigger !!

There is actually a recognized psychological phenom revolving around the inability of the human mind to correctly process all the senses simultaneously and/or notice environmental changes, when this is coupled with divided attention, tiredness or any number of contributing factors accidents happen.
The mind is surprisingly easy confused and sees or doesn't see what it wants to fill in the blanks.
Attachment 3048
In no way am i justifying any miss identification but it shows the importance of double and triple checking targets and the importance of being focused as it is amazing what can be missed when your not paying full attention (refer the link for an example)
selective attention test - YouTube!

I still can't see how more training is going a make any difference when the hunters doing the shootings are quoted as saying they were 100% sure they were shooting a deer?
Maybe be proactive and look at it the other way around and protect yourself rather than relying on others. Make it compulsory to cover yourself, more than a hat, in dayglo/blaze when bush hunting, like it is overseas. Sounds dumb but the flashing LED idea would probably work too if it didn't scare game away, not many deer wear those. Sure its a bit more cost but any of these solutions are going to cost something cause knowing what's right and doing the same isn't obviously working.
Eyesight testing possibly should be part of the licensing system too. It's relatively important to be able to see when shooting isn't it?

[QUOTE=Dead is better;40352]I dont think a compulsory hunting course is suitable for all shooters. Some of us will never hunt and only shoot targets, what benefit would they get? No this is stricktly a hunting license issue that may need to come into existance.

Being that this seems to be a psychological effect of the activity of hunting - i see no way to just 'train' your way out of it. Perhaps the way forward is to employ more technology in the field. I mean Jumbo jet pilots dont rely on their eyes to prevent mid air disasters. They use early warning systems and gps etc. Maybe we all should wear an eprb type device that a monitoring station watches over the weekend. When one blip gets within 1 km of another, that blip gets sent a text message. Couldnt an automatic server be set up to produce a simple warning when this happens?[/QUOTE]



I thought about this several years ago, but it would require 100% compliance. Some idiots would start shooting at anything that didn't "bleep"

Totally agree Tentman. As I said in my earlier post - complacency is a dangerous thing. We all need to be aware that it has happened to other very experienced hunters, and it can happen to any one of us. I get fully blazed up these days, and recent magazine articles appear to show that I am more concealed from deer in my blaze orange, than someone else in brown/green camo gear. I also believe that just an orange beanie is not enough, and in low light, could be seen as a bit of light shining on a red's summer coat.
Some mates think that the blaze clothing is perpetrated by retailers, but I'm willing to glow in the dark to save my arse. I'm not a good enough bush stalker anyway - so if you see an orange glow overlooking a slip - don't shoot!

Approx 300,000 FAL holders in NZ, if we were levied $10 a year that's 3mil that could go towards safety, education, practical training, etc

Firstly, my thoughts, prayers and condolences for the families of those affected.

I know Henry personally and have always admired his character and professionalism.
Henry is one of the most qualified instructors I know of and a specialist in the field of safety management. His manner is always intelligent, thorough, and humble.

One of my mentors in the outdoors industry introduced me to the concept of Confirmation Bias – the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions. List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since then I have read a lot on reasons people make wrong calls and can tell you that this is a complex field. The call to ‘identify your target’ really needs a lot more explanation of what may happen in your head. Studies done on the best of the best air force pilots found that even their minds can play tricks on them leading to not ‘see’ landing warning signs correctly, or to incorrectly identify friendly personnel as enemies. (eg Deep Survival by L Gonzales)
Applying this to hunting the best advice I’ve heard is asking “is that a person” rather than “is that a deer” as this will help your bias toward the safe option.

My main thoughts on this tragedy is that if people at this level of expertise and experience can make these mistakes, then no one is immune from this mistake happening to them. We should carry that reminder with us each time we hunt.

And we should continue to be humble in our own estimation of our abilities

I totally agree with lentil. i blaze up every time, reduce the risk as much as you can. that stony creek blaze is great hunters shouild be able to see you for a mile. anyone shoots you while wearing blaze should be locked up for a very long time thats for sure.

Thats a fair comment about the blaze orange, yet it apparently can be mistaken for a deer at 16m with a scope. Unfortunately there are people out there that will shoot at the first thing they see, rather than think it could be a person. It appears as though when we go hunting we not only have to look for deer to shoot, but we have to look for some stupid wanker that wants to shoot us thinking we are a deer.

Unfortunately it isnt the first and it wont be the last. Everyone has to be safe with the thought in the back of you mind, who else is in here and what are their intentions or how excited are they. Have never hunted the roar, and never will as it is far too dangerous.

Everyone be safe and cautious of who may be around.

Henry Worsp 6 MONTHS HOME DETENTION and 250 hrs COMMUNITY WORK.
James Dodds __________________________________________________ _____________________________RIP.
If only everybody would totally identify there targets beyond any doubt. We will all be safer out there doing what we love and return to our families at the end of a hunt.

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Originally Posted by john m

Henry Worsp 6 MONTHS HOME DETENTION and 250 hrs COMMUNITY WORK.
James Dodds __________________________________________________ _____________________________RIP.
If only everybody would totally identify there targets beyond any doubt. We will all be safer out there doing what we love and return to our families at the end of a hunt.

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Absolutely.... but also those going hunting think about what you wear... I know it shouldn't matter you should ID 100% but your brain can play tricks and if you go fallow hunting in a brown and black top half and are crouching I am sure you go a long way to looking like a deer :/

Be safe and dont dress in deer colours, plenty of the olive brown gear looks way to close for my liking :o

I'm always amazed that so many dont seem to be able to accept that "good guys" get it wrong.
The answer could be a including training about how the human mind can see what it wants to see. It could be a fun and educational part of getting a licence.

All the rest..tougher sentences(they dont deter people who want to hurt someone) practical tests etc could be distractions from the issue.

I dont really know about blaze orange. I'm totally color blind and dont see what you see...blue is going to be safest around me.

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Originally Posted by Fisherman

.blue is going to be safest around me.

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I agree Fisherman. Blue sticks out like the proverbial hairy dogs nuts and is very alien and obvious in the green and brown of the hunting domain.

When I was doing the MSC part for my FAL the he said blue is the best color to wear.

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Originally Posted by Fisherman

I'm always amazed that so many dont seem to be able to accept that "good guys" get it wrong.
The answer could be a including training about how the human mind can see what it wants to see. It could be a fun and educational part of getting a licence.

All the rest..tougher sentences(they dont deter people who want to hurt someone) practical tests etc could be distractions from the issue.

I dont really know about blaze orange. I'm totally color blind and dont see what you see...blue is going to be safest around me.

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Very well put and I think the I will never do that attitude stinks and is half the cause.....if you doubt your eyes and brain surely everyone is safer as when it plays tricks on you you will doubt the brain and second guess it!

If you are so sure about yourself you may end up like so many other "I will never do that" people in court and a charge ....

I have the benefit to have had a discussion with a mate that swore black and blue he had a deer in his scope pulled the gun down then back up and it wasn't there..... went over and no tracks. He was positive it was a deer but it was just a collection of ferns and trees the resembled a deer, second look and they didn't even resemble a deer that well. He took the second look and is not one to squeeze the trigger at the drop of a hat.... if he was a snap shooter type and there was a hunter in the middle of those twigs....well you don't want to think about it :(