Another stunning decision by the judiciary, wtf.

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Originally Posted by sore head stoat

The last thing in the world [almost] I want is a judicial system like the Americans have.

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dunno, i fully support the death sentence for evil scumbags

Admittedly I don't have a lot of experience in the punishment issues but I do have a few close experiences.
One involved a young man who got tangled up with drug dealing and use and gangs. Ended up in minimum security prison for several months and wanted to stay clean after release. He got targeted by past crim associates and pressured back into crime and then more jail time. Killed himself after second release.
Other things I have seen are chaps coming out of prison into work and going ok until hit on by past crims associates and or rellies who want cash handouts and similar bludging. Some of these chaps try to rehabilitate their lifestyles but are in catch 22 where to be free of crim influences they have to isolate from old friends whanau and even places they lived. To do so is hard.
I see the system failure as being lack of very strong probation rules along with very strong protection for the ones trying to stay clean, from criminals amd their pressures.
Such protection would require laws in place to enforce the prevention of criminal associations with ex crims and their families. The civil rights implications would be complex but the reality is that hardened crim groups and families don't give a hoot for anyone but themselves. They create and breed their own separation from decent society and it is cancerous unless removed zapped or isolated such that the disease cannot spread.
I have seen potentially good men and families swallowed into poverty and crime simply because of influence from crim friends rellies and associates which the family would not or for some reason could not isolate from.

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Originally Posted by gmm

Unfortunately there has been clear mandate from central government to reduce the prison population, this has had a direct impact on sentencing and what punishment should be applied in cases. There is a clear move towards more community based sentencing, its just a reflection of the ever increasing workness of society.
There has also been a distinct change in selection of judges with the focus on appointments following on from many Government sector roles were the weighting used to assess appointments reflects the current directives on Gender, Ethnicity and at times political affiliation, competency and experience are considered but no longer as relevant as they once were.
This is occurring across many Government departments and has been happening for sometime now and is more prevalent in senior positions. There are some very good people who work in the all Government departments but high level positions are far more susceptible to political interference than they once were. One only needs to look at the senior appointments in DOC while Sage was the Minister to see how easy it was for her to ensure her cronies were appointed to senior positions.
You need to understand that the justice system is funded and runs on providing for the offender not the victim, in many cases they show scant or no regard for the impact of crime on the victim, this was summed up to me many years ago in a discussing with a rather older cynical defence lawyer who when asked why there was so little focus on victims, his reply was simple "there's no money in victims". Sums it up well in my opinion.

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Sums it up very well.

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Originally Posted by Maca49

I agree, ………….with the last sentence

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I agree with a longer, prison sentence!:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Woody

Admittedly I don't have a lot of experience in the punishment issues but I do have a few close experiences.
One involved a young man who got tangled up with drug dealing and use and gangs. Ended up in minimum security prison for several months and wanted to stay clean after release. He got targeted by past crim associates and pressured back into crime and then more jail time. Killed himself after second release.
Other things I have seen are chaps coming out of prison into work and going ok until hit on by past crims associates and or rellies who want cash handouts and similar bludging. Some of these chaps try to rehabilitate their lifestyles but are in catch 22 where to be free of crim influences they have to isolate from old friends whanau and even places they lived. To do so is hard.
I see the system failure as being lack of very strong probation rules along with very strong protection for the ones trying to stay clean, from criminals amd their pressures.
Such protection would require laws in place to enforce the prevention of criminal associations with ex crims and their families. The civil rights implications would be complex but the reality is that hardened crim groups and families don't give a hoot for anyone but themselves. They create and breed their own separation from decent society and it is cancerous unless removed zapped or isolated such that the disease cannot spread.
I have seen potentially good men and families swallowed into poverty and crime simply because of influence from crim friends rellies and associates which the family would not or for some reason could not isolate from.

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you very close to hitting the answer...close but not quite there...... rather than the recently released being prohibited from associating with crims/gangs it needs flipped on its head...crims n gangs need to keep the hell away from everyone else....how you do that is the fly in ointment... lock them up some say..... make it hard for them to move around others say...drop them in bottom of a deep hole others say....
being able to recieve dole in its many forms WITHOUT being drug tested is the first thing that needs addressed..... being on dole/DPB/sickness etc etc may not be quite so attractive of lifestyle if you have to pee in a jar and be clean or recieve a deminishing benifit untill clean again,say a 25% drop per failed test?????

and how is it the fella this thread started out discussing DIDNT end up with a prison sentence for being in possesion of a handgun???? that beggars belief .

I mean't it both ways md. Usually I observed the person trying to make a new clean way was being pressured from crim elements in the community or whanau/extended family. It's very difficult to address and imo requires a very tough resilient independent body closely attached to parole boards and parole officers to monitor and ruthlessly enforce separation and protection from the external elements. As an example of the weakness in the society these days; girlfriend applies for firearms licence. Does one day course, passes and buys firearm/s and ammo. Bully boys get handed the arms and ammo as pre-arranged. Non co-op = da bash or worse.
Soft society is scoffed at.
But hey; I'm not pc or a PC so the pollies, wokes and psychobabblers don't give a rats about opinions like mine anyways. Heck, what do I know cos I've only worked amongst these communities in forest and rural areas for seven+ decades, and seen it all get worse as the pussies got more control. I have no degree in bullsh..t.

yip the bully boys will always have that...and drug dependency to put pressure on..... they werent called crack whores for nothing.
the trick/balancing act is to still allow law abiding folks access to stuff and to try and stop the "bully boys" from getting it.....yeah that is as daft as it sounds,pipe dreams...meth pipe at that... only way to break the bully boys power is to break the bully boys...we arent yet in a Chicago cartel senario but only because the bully boys have it too easy in our soft society.... why kill the goose that keeps laying golden eggs every thursday???

Productive work / employment for "unemployed persons" can easily become mandatory and wipe out "idle hands". Whether it be tree planting or state house painting or collecting seaweed for fertilizer or construction or recycling clothing. Being occupied if physically and mentally able could be compulsory for ex jailbirds and or associates. Those who show positive effort could be graduated to state sponsered managed apprenticeships or other trades and professions. Some form of compulsion amd overseeing for several years per person is required though imo.

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Originally Posted by Woody

Admittedly I don't have a lot of experience in the punishment issues but I do have a few close experiences.
One involved a young man who got tangled up with drug dealing and use and gangs. Ended up in minimum security prison for several months and wanted to stay clean after release. He got targeted by past crim associates and pressured back into crime and then more jail time. Killed himself after second release.
Other things I have seen are chaps coming out of prison into work and going ok until hit on by past crims associates and or rellies who want cash handouts and similar bludging. Some of these chaps try to rehabilitate their lifestyles but are in catch 22 where to be free of crim influences they have to isolate from old friends whanau and even places they lived. To do so is hard.
I see the system failure as being lack of very strong probation rules along with very strong protection for the ones trying to stay clean, from criminals amd their pressures.
Such protection would require laws in place to enforce the prevention of criminal associations with ex crims and their families. The civil rights implications would be complex but the reality is that hardened crim groups and families don't give a hoot for anyone but themselves. They create and breed their own separation from decent society and it is cancerous unless removed zapped or isolated such that the disease cannot spread.
I have seen potentially good men and families swallowed into poverty and crime simply because of influence from crim friends rellies and associates which the family would not or for some reason could not isolate from.

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All of what you have said, highlights what Agencies (who try to support released prisoners) , have been telling Governments for years : There is very-little/ no support for Offenders once they are released from custody .The Very-Luck ones , have work organised for them, in a location that is new to them . This is very rare though. Many return to low-socio-economic families where crime is accepted and sometimes encouraged . Accommodation is next to impossible to find, criminal-records stop people from renting etc. You need a Bank-account and address to access the benefit, many are illiterate to some degree and also on the autism-spectrum. I'm not singing some lefty-liberal-song here, just pointing out facts. In these circumstances, where do you go ? You go straight back to where you were, or a contact you made 'Inside'. I dont have the answer, maybe enforced 'Mentor-ship' or something along those line, could alter the outcome . While I laughed, and loved the Idea of Changi , I wouldnt want to see the outcome of more Triad-connections, which would definitely come about .

Impractical pollies in ivory towers.

sitting here watching movie "whale rider"

yeah even though its a movie...so not entirely on point with reality...... you can see the devide..the struggle and the battle to get back into line with civvie street,young fellas dad just out of the clink...... the two sons neither really following the old ways so both out of touch with family support...and the silly old bugger stuck in the mud shooting himself in the foot at every turn....
surprised the rainbow crown arent up in arms over the gender thing......YET.

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Originally Posted by rewa

All of what you have said, highlights what Agencies (who try to support released prisoners) , have been telling Governments for years : There is very-little/ no support for Offenders once they are released from custody .

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Didn't the government give the Mongrel Mob a couple of million for a rehab program?

Financing the gang wars in jaffaland?

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Originally Posted by vulcannz

Didn't the government give the Mongrel Mob a couple of million for a rehab program?

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That was for a meth rehab program
Bloody ridiculous

Word on the street was that most of the 2.75mill was quickly converted into Harleys:XD: