The entire premise of the system is basically stupid so don't be surprised that the details are too
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The entire premise of the system is basically stupid so don't be surprised that the details are too
If I wake up one day and any of my A-Cat rifles have become E-Cat, my jim jams will be officially flim flammed. Even more so if I am faced with any of the options put forward in that letter.
Interestingly, I'd wager that's the same arms officer that told my mate that the bullpup SKS stock he wanted (which is the most space-aged baby-killing E-Cat looking thing ever) was "awesome, really good to use, definitely A-cat".
Dougie, culling is not the only acceptable route to get E cat. As per the original letter that started this thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougie
To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns.
Pretty much the exact same regime that has been used for pistols for several years now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Which makes it impossible for most people to obtain. There is no way I could get the time/money to attend a club shoot minimum 12 times a year.
If pistols are not relegated to museums by the time the kids leave home I might get there then.
If I wanted to shoot bunnys/goats/deer etc with a mssa(which is not illegal unlike pistols) why should I have to attend club shoots I may not even enjoy just to own it?
You don't, after the last fiasco they had to accept hunting as a legit reason however much they hated it (well for a while). Once you have your E there are no mandatory club shoots to attend as far as I am aware.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Had my E for 15 years.
From the opening post.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
"To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns."
This shows that in this region at least it would be exceptionally hard (ie impossible for the foreseeable future)for me to fitt there description of fit and proper.
How long untill all regions are like this?
This is the problem with a lot of AO's they "interpret" the regulations themselves. VC if you want to do it I would be more than happy to be a referee for ya, We allow "associate" members to join the club at a reduced fee if they want to shoot in "service rifle type" events. His comments in the article are misleading. pistol NZ only looks after IPSC and IPSC 3 gun events run by its members it has nothing to do at all with similar events run by others.
Sorry mikee, "had" your E? You don't anymore? Why is that if you mind me asking? Was it because it was revoked or asked to be revoked because you weren't hitting up a club or knocking over goats and being paid for it? Just interested, not trying to be rude.
He has had and still has it, I assume
I cannot see why I cannot just own an E cat firearm just because I enjoy them for what they are. Needing any other reason seems wrong if I am a fit and proper person to have a FAL. It's seems to bring in double standards. Same with pistols, would love to shoot pistol again, I have the chance to go with someone every week and shoot theirs, I also enjoy the mechanics and the work of art of a lot of firearms, especially old English shotguns and double guns. But the hassles of a B & E are too much for me. A C wouldn't work either as some times I like to put lead down the barrel, makes you feel like your a criminal or maybe becoming one.
Cheers Mikee.
One day I will get there.
Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2
I had my security visit last weekend and all of the serials are now recorded - even though I don't have any E types. In Wellington they only check E cat security it would appear.
It would be good for a political party to push for a independent authority to administrate firearms instead of the useless Police bureaucrats and then I would know who to vote for next.
Sorry Dougie my bad gramma, I have had and still hold my E endorsement, won't be giving it up anytime soon eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by Dougie
I agree Maca.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
Surrender by stealth.
I've had an E endorsement since they were invented and every relicencing since then I have been asked in a subtle way to surrender it along with my C.
The conversation usually goes along the lines of "I dont appear to be using these endorsements much so don't really need them do I" with comments like it's "Something to consider" then you won't have to have higher security costs or you could sell those firearms for a good price and use the money for a holiday or something etc.
The inspectors around here are all ex detectives and are all quite good but they also know what they're doing when they ask these questions, they may catch you at a weak moment or even sway your better judgement on the spur of the moment and with one stroke of their pen your endorsement/s, your legal right if judged a fit and proper person, is gone.... maybe for good.
My standard response is "No thanks I'll be keeping these" end of story.
I have also been asked each time to supply a list of all my non endorsed firearms for Police to hold on my behalf for "Insurance purposes" which I believe is just another way of obtaining information by stealth that the Police are not currently entitled to.
I always politely decline by saying my insuranced company already has this information.
Cheers
Pete
That just makes me pissed. Why not be straight up with somebody than beat around the bush with clever wording. Interviewing you like you're a criminal, great. My AO has voiced his distaste for semi autos to me, but at least he is straight up and knows what he is an is not able to do under the law. He's great to deal with. I really feel for you guys who have to put up with all the bullshit from vetting officers and AO's who just can't keep their beak out of your rightful business.Quote:
Originally Posted by P38
Nows that's a brilliant idea and this forum could become that authority? You wouldn't find any party better equipped and with more knowledge!Quote:
Originally Posted by Col.Whiplash
Colonel I vote you president of the board!
They way to really stuff them up would be for everyone on this forum to apply for a C cat, problem would be cost, but if I did apply I don't see how it could be refused based on my life long interest alone. I'll think about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beavis
The system is used to intimidate law abiding firearms owners away from doing things we're legally entitled to do. We're made to feel like criminals for wanting things we're legally entitled to own and discouraged from perfectly legal and honest actions like applying for import permits or mail order forms.
Well looks like there will be over 250,000.00 registered NZ cullers businesses soon. :)
Problem solved :)
Like it or not, its all in black and white.......... (until it changes....???)
Cut and paste from: Arms Code Section 3: Understanding firearms | New Zealand Police
Military-style semi-automatics (MSSAs)
MSSAs are used for hunting, pest control, and target shooting. The reason for which the endorsement is sought becomes a condition of granting the endorsement. This means that you must obtain Police approval for each activity you wish to undertake with your MSSA.
MSSAs may only be used by a person who holds an E endorsement, and only if they have obtained from the Arms Officer a permit to procure the MSSA they wish to use.
Cut and paste from: Arms Code Section 4: Firearms Licensing | New Zealand Police
‘B’ Endorsement (29(2)(a) Arms Act 1983)
Target Shooting Pistol Club Members This allows the holder to possess and use pistols as a
member of an incorporated pistol club recognised by the Commissioner of Police. Pistols may only be used on a range approved by the Commissioner of Police.
‘E’ Endorsement (30( b) Arms Act 1983)
Military-style semi-automatics
This is required for people to have military style semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. MSSAs can only be used by people with an ‘E’ endorsement. An MSSA cannot be used ‘under supervision.’ No one may use an MSSA without this endorsement.
Revocation
A licence may be revoked as a result of irresponsible behaviour with firearms.
Your firearms licence or endorsements can be revoked by a Commissioned Officer of the Police if you act in such a way that indicates you are no longer a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm.
Domestic violence
Police may seize firearms and consider revocation of a person’s firearms licence if that person is thought to be involved in family (domestic) violence.
A protection order issued under the Domestic Violence Act automatically revokes a firearms licence. If you wish to keep owning or using firearms when a protection order applies to you, you must ask the Court to allow you to keep your licence. This is usually done by responding to the notice sent to you by the Court when the order is first taken out.
It is an offence to be in possession of firearms or airguns after your firearms licence has been revoked.
Licence expiry
A firearms licence expires after 10 years. You should apply for a new licence, or surrender your current one, before it expires. Once a licence expires it costs much more to obtain another one. (This higher fee reflects the actual cost of issuing a licence.)
The application is for a ‘new licence’. Full vetting is carried out by Police. Security will be inspected. Police will ask how many firearms you possess so as to ensure that the security they inspect is adequate.
Endorsements
Any endorsements attached to your firearms licence continues if you apply for a new licence before the current one expires. Otherwise the endorsements expire with the licence and an additional fee is required to apply for any new endorsement(s). When you apply to renew your licence you will be required to justify continuing to hold the endorsement.
This is the requirements by law for any endorsement, you sign your life away to abide by when getting your endorsement:http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/services/firearms/safe-storage-requirements-for-endorsements-pol67n.pdf
I thought I had a copy of the E application form. It does state you must prove you have known your referees for at least .... years. Your referees must be people involved in the firearms industry or a club who can prove you are a fit an proper person.
I will look harder and see if I can get a copy of what is written on the form.
So in short,
I want and AR15.....
AO : ok sir and your reason...?...
I hunt rabbits....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Survy
I'm doing this very shortly, I'll let you know how it goes.
I want a pistol, for what purpose? To shoot paper and cuddle every now and then?
I reckon that's gay as. I would like to hunt with a pistol but since you can't I reckon its a waste of time getting a licence for one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
Yep so catch 22, B cat get all the hassles, C licence cannot shoot! And I don't have a police record
There's the answer, get a police record and then you can ignore all the rules and have what ever firearm you can get your mitts on. The Police wont know what you have so wont care. No background checks, no security to install, use it where you want, and you don't need to register it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
Laws only restrict the law abiding! Seems only the police don't see the irony!
Always said the best way to own a pistol would be an illegal one, but I'm to old now for the repercussions. Seems silly an honest guy would think that way, sometimes the law is an ass :roll::roll::roll::huh::huh::huh::gangs::gangs::ga ngs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Littledog
Speaking on getting an E licence, what deals are there on 5+ Cat E safes? Looking on Trademe Edge want $900 for theirs, so I might as well get one from reloaders for the difference....at last I know it will pass E and I'll have someone's ear to bend....
regards
A policeman once said to me "we (public) are all guilty/criminals but some of us have not been caught yet." With attitudes like that its no wonder they have credibility issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Littledog
Bit of the Pot calling the Kettle black with the lastest headlines in the papers this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
Seems it's getting quite common for Police officers to be outted recently.
Which is a good thing too.
Cheers
Pete
They're like every other group in the country - human, and there's going to be bad apples in any group. Teachers who are alcoholics and kiddy fiddlers, taxi drivers who drink and drive, doctors who sleep with their patients, shooters who poach or buy ammo for their mate who doesn't have an FAL :D The list goes on.....
Oh god no ......Quote:
Would you be good enough to publish a correction to your newsletter; that will mean that NSA will not have to escalate the matter further.
Your not Wrong KscottQuote:
Originally Posted by Kscott
One of the problems is no one faces up and says the truth, because of the PC brigade and somone may have their feelings hurt.I watched Q&A this am and I could scream.
The truth hurts sometimes, but it's the truth.
Yep but the Police's job is to enforce the laws as written, not to interpret them and act accordingly. That job is for the courts.Quote:
Originally Posted by P38
It seems with the Arms Act there is a whole lot of "interpretation" going on by everyone especially some of the AOs round the country.
I really enjoy pistol shooting and see it as a great discipline. But do feel sorry for those who live so far away from a club to be able to join and commit to the required number of shoots per year-especially on joining and applying for your B as you need 12 shoots in 6 months to start with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
I would not like to see this rule applied to E cat shooters. I am lucky as I have my B and E and have clubs close by to enable me to participate regularly but for those far from the nearest club it does make it very unpractical to attend. I can see the Police future direction being that both B and E will require club membership which currently is not law for E but is on the Police wish list I am sure.
Why do the Police fear the so called MSSA when the endorsee has jumped thru all the hoops, security measures and been vetted and defined as fit and proper. The law abiding are not the ones the Police need to fear. It is sad they see us as such an issue.
I feel so much more safer in the bush or at a range around other firearm licensee's than I do down town on a friday night-why because the great majority of firearm owners are practical, polite and decent people who generally respect others.
That is a very ignorant way of looking at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
It is a judges job to judge on the laws as they are written, when not written clearly then they have to interpret. Same with Police, they have to interpret the law and enforce it when it isn't clear, yet the judge can interpret the law differently and overrule them.
A lot of law needs to be interpreted as it isn't sufficiently clear, Police couldn't do their job without interpreting law which hasn't been clarified in court.
People so often miss the forest for the trees when it comes to the Arms Act.
The problem arises when police become overzealous in their interpretation of the law and get it wrong. The legal system is weighted heavily in favour of the enforcement agents and they will sometimes use this to their advantage. The average citizen does not have the same level of understanding of the law as the enforcement agent, so is already at a disadvantage before their case even comes to court.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
Once their case goes before court, the average citizen does not also have unlimited funds to spend on defending his / her actions and the veneer of "fairness" afforded by a court appointed legal representation isn't worth a hill of beans.
Laws apply to everyone and as such, it should in my opinion, be a legal requirement that everyone can understand them instead of the obfuscation that we currently have. Citizens, police, judges would all be able to understand it, time in court and legal fees would be reduced.
Agree with you that the Police have to interpret the law to enforce it on many occasions. But they also get that interpretation wrong often on many occasions and tend to bring a over zealous and poorly informed interpretation to the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
The thumbhole fiasco was a incorrect interpretation on a previously incorrect pistol grip interpretation (high court decision). Kiwi shooters were abiding by the Police's incorrect pistol grip interpretation to keep the peace with the police and due to many not knowing it was a flawed/incorrect interpretation, but then the Police decided to change the interpretation again to include a thumbhole as a pistol grip-this was a incorrect interpretation too far and action was taken against that.
The interpretation then created a wedge and ill feeling between a section of law abiding shooters and the Police which I hope will be able to be fixed and the good feelings return.
The Police have since retracted the thumbhole interpretation and do seem at the local AO level to be making attempts to repair the ill feeling generated. However the management still seem to be tracking in the wrong direction on firearm safety/control.
I feel the biggest problem is that the laws themselves are written by people who don't know jack about firearms, and they are unwilling to listen to those who do. I think the rules could be a piece of piss to understand if they aimed for simplicity and deleted shit that is irrelevant. I think the E cat classification system should be trashed. The "features" on that list don't amount to anything. It was a copy and paste job done by people who don't really know how to classify what an MSSA is. For example, on the Sport Shooter board, there is a discussion about what exactly a flash suppressor is. If your muzzle brake also suppresses muzzle flash then...? What about your sound suppressor? If we don't know how is a cop expected to know?
Interesting reading. It's going to get so hard to have any weaponry at some stage. I can see it getting to the point that one day an 'E cat' storage will be required for anything larger than what's classed as a pistol. As for the Police, some cops are clued up on the paperwork and will have you sorted whereas some are not.