Thread: B Cat Safe.... info required please.

Hi, long time... no post... sorry 'bout that, but here's a question for you.....

Is a Sentry Safes GM1459E a B cat safe?

it's a big heavy bugger measuring 60cm x 60cm x 150cm and weighs 180kg made from Hardened Steel and as a fire safe it can take 760C for 1/2 an hour with out any trouble..
It has been installed since 2012 now and was inspected and passed as OK when I applied for Firearms License. It was also passed as being fit for me to use as a safe to store pistols when I applied for my B some 3 years ago in but after today's visit by a "New" Firearms Vetting person who reckons now that it isn't any good for keeping B-cat or E-cat stuff in although it apparently was OK for the last 3 years and it hasn't been moved, it is exactly where it was when it was first installed in 2012.

Now this safe was sold new (I bought it new from Hunting and Fishing) as an A, B, C and E cat safe when I bought it and it's apparently been fine for B cat for the last 3 years (don't have any C or E cat stuff at present) but now I'm worried it may now be deemed unfit for B cat and I'll need to get another one or lose the guns.

Am I right in saying that these Sentry Safes GM1459E safes were sold as A, B, C and E cat safes?

And if so, does anybody have any idea where I can get proof that this is/was a B-cat safe.

Thanks in advance
H_E

What does the engineers certificate say that was supplied with the safe when you bought it?

There was no certificate with the safe when I bought it.

H_E

Here's an earlier discussion on the subject....
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...fe-e-cat-2336/

H_E

Very likely it is just an A cat safe then.
B,C and E cat safes come with a engineers certificate a nd your arms officer should really ask to sight it when they do an inspection.
Talk to H&F to see if it came with one.

Read some of the comments in your link you put up.
People are saying the same thing.
Not E-cat.

There were a few sentry safes that I heard about that were sold as being endorsed level safes but were not actually 6mm steel .They had taken into account the two layers of steel that sandwiched the fireproof liner when getting them checked out but the two layers still didnt add up to 6mm .

Sentrys own website has a questions section on that safe where it lists it as 13 gauge steel 2.78mm.. However a lot of safes that are brought in are custom made to comply with NZ laws so the website listing may have no relevance to your actual safe ,

Best bet would be try get hold of the nz importers outdoor brands and see if your safe is actually up to correct specs and get a new engineers report which they should still have on file hopefully .

There was also a bunch of posters saying that they were E-cat (and it's B-Cat I'm looking for).
They were certainly sold as such which is why I spent one and a half grand on one knowing I would be putting in for my B within 6 months... no way anyone in their right mind would pay $1500 for a 14 gun A cat safe considering how you can be allowed to store A cat gear.

I've already got H&F on the case but all they probably did was buy it from another supplier.
Surly plod must have a list of commercially available safes in NZ and their firearms category rating.

But what is p*$$*&g me off is the fact that it was fine for 3 years and all of a sudden now it isn't and nothing my end has changed.

Cheers
H_E

Safes do not have to be 6mm. They come under a different regulation

If you have the same safe as me then here is the engineers certificate stating it complies with the regulations.
Hope it helps

Talk to your AO and give him the certificate. Its not up to the vetter to decide only to inspect

Mikee..... what can I say... yer a top bloke, many thanks for that it is really, really appreciated.

It is a Sentry Safes GM1459E.

The vetter is a new guy who has only been in the job for 6 months and is an ex-engineer so probably new broom syndrome.
He also told me I need it bolting to the wall even though it is bolted into the concrete floor with 12mm x 100mm expanding anchor bolts.
I can swing on the open door and the safe doesn't move one little bit and believe me you wouldn't want to pick me up, I ain't no anorexic dude.
So just because it says in the rules that it should be bolted to the wall he reckons I have to do it and it means trying to bolt it into plasterboard which will have no effect on its ability to be nicked.
To move this safe you would have to drive a forklift or a JCB into the house and ram into it until you sheared the bolts off and with it being hardened steel I can't drill the B"$*^£d anyway to bolt it to the biscuit thin inside board of a cavity internal wall which is why it is bolted down so heavily to the floor.
It looks to me sadly to be a verbatim application of the written word of the rules with no common sense at all applied.

Cheers and Many thanks
H_E

Originally Posted by Houdielbow

Mikee..... what can I say... yer a top bloke, many thanks for that it is really, really appreciated.

It is a Sentry Safes GM1459E.

The vetter is a new guy who has only been in the job for 6 months and is an ex-engineer so probably new broom syndrome.
He also told me I need it bolting to the wall even though it is bolted into the concrete floor with 12mm x 100mm expanding anchor bolts.
I can swing on the open door and the safe doesn't move one little bit and believe me you wouldn't want to pick me up, I ain't no anorexic dude.
So just because it says in the rules that it should be bolted to the wall he reckons I have to do it and it means trying to bolt it into plasterboard which will have no effect on its ability to be nicked.
To move this safe you would have to drive a forklift or a JCB into the house and ram into it until you sheared the bolts off and with it being hardened steel I can't drill the B"$*^£d anyway to bolt it to the biscuit thin inside board of a cavity internal wall which is why it is bolted down so heavily to the floor.
It looks to me sadly to be a verbatim application of the written word of the rules with no common sense at all applied.

Cheers and Many thanks
H_E

Again, Talk to your local AO, he has the final say. Get him to personally check the installation if he will come out. Mine does have 2 bolts holding it to a wall just like yours because thats what the book says. They really are more for show. The safe itself is bolted thru the floor with 4 15mm diameter dynabolts and also a bloody great dollop of Sellys no more nails as recomended by the local lock smiths
Mine was and has been passed numerous times.

And you can drill it but it aint easy

The requirment is 6mm MILD steel or equivalent. ......

Originally Posted by nzvermin

The requirment is 6mm MILD steel or equivalent. ......

Only if its NOT a Safe. On the security inception form there are 2 sections on for "Safes" and the other for "Steel Cabinet or Box"


The confusion arises because most people build their safes which under the eyes of the law are actually "Steel Cabinets or Box" and therefore have a different requirement

I photographed the Inspection form before the vetter did my security inspection so I know exactly what was needed

Yeah man drill through the wall and glue the bolts there if u have too keeps them happy

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Yes, you are right a steel box constructed as a one off restricted storage device needs to be 6mm Mild steel or equivalent BUT a commercially available safe doesn't have to be 6mm mild steel (as this vettor kept telling me it had to be... obviously he doesn't know his own rules very well) but they do need an independent engineers report... and as I postulated earlier shouldn't the Firearms vettors (or at least the AO whose jurisdiction you come under) have a copy of these engineers certificates for each model or type of safe sold in NZ to be referenced BEFORE turning up and telling you you're not secure?

Wouldn't the safe have been researched for compliance when I put in for my restricted and it, the property and the area was thoroughly inspected and as long as nothing has changed structurally to the property or the safe hasn't been moved, the law not changed then if it was compliant in 2012 then it must by definition be compliant now... unless the "new" vettor is saying that the old vettor of many years standing was actually professionally incompetent (and I wouldn't like to pay the compensation in a law suit if that one ever went to court).

Are these civilian vettors now saying that the burden of proof of fitness for purpose lies with anyone who buys a commercially sold firearms safe to prove that what they have bought to do a job is actually up to the the specifications to do the job it was bought for?

Found this section (over 2 pages) in the "conditions and requirements for firearms licenses and endorsements" NZ Police form Number POL 67N



Cheers to all
Very much appreciated
H_E