Thread: B Cat Safe.... info required please.

Seems to be a bit of shit starting to swirl around safes, completely baseless and arbitrary. Inspectors are not engineers, their spicy opinions cannot run over the top of a qualified engineer without good reason. More police dick-swinging, good times.

For what its worth I have printed copies of the engineers certificate.

One is laminated and pined to the door inside the safe with plain copies behind it just in case they want a copy.

i would ask on your vetter to show you where on the "inspection check list for "safes" it says "must be 6mm or equivalent"

Have a friend going through this with the Rotorua AO who says that a lot of E cat etc safes have been getting broken into that do not have a brand name, so that will be required.
Completely ignore the professional who says it meets the standards, right?

I have just printed one off now and stuck it to the side of the safe and it'll be interesting to see if H&F at Otaki manage to get one and if not then I'll give 'em a copy of this one that you kindly gave me Mikee.
But shouldn't Plod have a copy of the certificate somewhere so that their vettors go in to do their job totally au fait with the law and with a proper knowledge of the security equipment a shooter has so as it isn't open to the personal interpretation of individuals?
Bear in mind that this wasn't a visit to check on my security PRIOR to me getting a B endorsement it was the yearly check on the B-Cat Guns in my possession.... Interestingly I wasn't asked to produce the mags for my 3 semi-auto pistols (which I have always been asked for in the past) they could have been in my ammo safe fully populated for all anyone knows, they aren't they are locked away in a separate room but oddly I wasn't asked for them.

Also a bit of advice, does a vettor have any legal right to check through my A-Cat equipment when being there to check B-Cat equipment?

I'm a bit pissed-off at present about all this 'cause I am now left for the time being with being told that:-
1)I am, and have been for 3 years, keeping handguns in an unlawful manner,
2)I was sold a safe by a reputable nation wide high street vendor that is not fit for purpose it was advertised for,
3)the person who originally inspected my security was professionally incompetent for passing it as being fit and lawful for storing B-Cat weaponry.
4)the burden of proof of my safe being fit for purpose apparently appears to lie with me.

So where does that leave me now?

Cheers
H_E

Yearly checks? Never heard of anyone getting that before? You must be on some sort of 'list'.

@Houdielbow

Your Inspector and maybe the AO are likely to be stepping outside the bounds of the Arms act and it's Regulations.

No the Licencing Inspect cannot ask to see or record any firearm that is not subject to an Endorsement.

Unless you agree to this it's simply none of his business.

I have only ever been required to show my security and my endorsed firearms.

I've held several endorsements since the late 1980's and have never heard of, or been subjected to, "Annual Security Checks" for any Endorsement.

Having held several endorsements for decades I have never had inspections of my security except for when I first applied for the endorsements, and at the Ten Yearly renewals.

They never even bothered to re-inspect my security part way through a ten year licencing cycle when I notified them of a change of address.

I do understand that a "Police Officer" can ask to inspect your security at anytime they choose too.

I have known some people that have had surprise visits like this for good reason, however I have never.

I have never been asked to show an Engineers Certificate for my "Strong Box", however it is quite obvious that it complies with the regulations being a fully welded 25mm Steel box.

Politely ask the Inspector to show you in the Inspection Audit Papers or the Arms act and it's Regulations where your safe does not comply.

And yes your Safe needs to be "Secured to Two Surfaces" even if the 10mm coach screw is only screwed into dry wall.

So secure your safe to two different surfaces, give him the engineers certificate that Mikee gave you and then stand your ground and tell him "See you at our next licence renewal".

My bet is the Inspector will back down.

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

B-Cat is yearly, E-Cat 3 is yearly.

@10-Ring

I've had a B endorsement since the late 80's and an E endorsement since inception and have never been subjected to an Annual or Three yearly inspection.

The only Security Inspections I've had have been at Licence Renewal every Ten Years.

Can you show us where this requirement is in the Arms Act or it's Regulations?

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by Jexla

Yearly checks? Never heard of anyone getting that before? You must be on some sort of 'list'.

I used to get checked every one or two years ever since I moved to Nelson but then we had a really onto it AO who has since retired

Originally Posted by P38

I've had a B endorsement since the late 80's and an E endorsement since inception and have never been subjected to an Annual or Three yearly inspection.

The only Security Inspections I've had have been at Licence Renewal every Ten Years.

Can you show us where this requirement is in the Arms Act or it's Regulations?

Cheers
Pete

That's very interesting..... maybe it's just a Wellington thing.

What's really crawling up the end of my piss-pipe is the "I'm an engineer and I know it's none compliant" attitude when he really had no bussiness re-inspecting it to make sure it met his pedjudicial thinking.

My AO is a nice, reasonable, and pleasent guy who never talks down to you and has no "I'm the boss" issues and I have no truck with him at all.

Cheers All
H_E

FWIW I get checked every year or so

They no longer want to know anything about my A-cat stuff, just the Endorsed

I don't really give a shit about whether they can or not legally, I care more that they don't leak my address to any crims

The checks are for making sure that firearms are stored correctly, I think that some people get up on their hind legs over nothing

I guess all this shows is that there is a lot of inconsistency across the regions or maybe even from one AO to another.

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by P38

I've had a B endorsement since the late 80's and an E endorsement since inception and have never been subjected to an Annual or Three yearly inspection.

The only Security Inspections I've had have been at Licence Renewal every Ten Years.

Can you show us where this requirement is in the Arms Act or it's Regulations?

Cheers
Pete

It is a requirement in my area. I'll check tomorrow exactly why it is so and let you know. Regarding an E-Cat endorsement, as an example, it may relate to the this section in the 1983 Arms Act:

33A Conditions of endorsement in respect of military style semi-automatic firearms

(2)
Any member of the Police may, on the direction of the Commissioner, impose, as conditions of an endorsement made by that member of the Police under section 30B, such conditions with regard to the use or custody of a military style semi-automatic firearm (being conditions additional to that specified in subsection (1)) as that member of the Police thinks fit.

Regardless, I can't see why anyone would object to having their firearms security checked as it benefits all law abiding fireams licence holders. It doesn't cost the holder anything. Never had anyone object in the slightest in my large area.

Further to the above post:

Arms Regulations 1992

29 Inspection of pistols, military style semi-automatic firearms, and restricted weapons

(1) Every dealer’s licence and every other permit, licence, or endorsement granted under the Act shall be deemed to be granted subject to the condition that, where any person is in possession of a pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon (other than an air pistol) by virtue of that permit, licence, or endorsement, that person shall—

(a) produce that pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon to any member of the Police on demand; and

(b) permit the member of the Police to inspect the pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, and restricted weapon and the place where it is kept, and, for that purpose, to enter at all reasonable times upon the premises where the place is situated.


(2) It is the duty of every member of the Police exercising any power conferred by subclause (1)—

(a) to identify himself or herself to the person in possession of the pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon; and

(b) to tell the person in possession of the pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon that the power is being exercised pursuant to subclause (1); and

(c) if he or she is not in uniform, to produce on initial entry, and, if requested, at any subsequent time, evidence that he or she is a member of the Police

I have no objections to them checking my B cat guns out, what I object to is having a perfectly good and Legal safe installation of 4 years now condemed as insecure because the civilian vettor is quoting rules that they haven't actually understood correctly.
It is a sad fact that system of vetting is apparently open to the interpretation of a civilian who, it appears to me, is out to make a name for himself by saying that the people doing his job before him were incompetant by allowing illegal security installations to be used for restricted firearms.

Cheers for all the help
H_E

Originally Posted by Jexla

Have a friend going through this with the Rotorua AO who says that a lot of E cat etc safes have been getting broken into that do not have a brand name, so that will be required.
Completely ignore the professional who says it meets the standards, right?

So.... a crim sees a brand name and say "Oh dam, not even worth trying get into that one. It's unbreakable!". Shit why doesn't that work on cars!