Thread: B Cat Safe.... info required please.

Originally Posted by Jexla

Have a friend going through this with the Rotorua AO who says that a lot of E cat etc safes have been getting broken into that do not have a brand name, so that will be required.
Completely ignore the professional who says it meets the standards, right?

Is this another localised AO "theme"? As long as the E cat safe is certified what difference does the brand name attached make? Same deal as for car alarms - if possible don't advertise the brand as all it does is gives the crims a lead into how to overcome that specific brand's security features.

Originally Posted by Houdielbow

I have no objections to them checking my B cat guns out, what I object to is having a perfectly good and Legal safe installation of 4 years now condemed as insecure because the civilian vettor is quoting rules that they haven't actually understood correctly.
It is a sad fact that system of vetting is apparently open to the interpretation of a civilian who, it appears to me, is out to make a name for himself by saying that the people doing his job before him were incompetant by allowing illegal security installations to be used for restricted firearms.

Cheers for all the help
H_E

Discuss your concerns directly with the AO in your area. Either your gun cabinet meets B and E-cat requirements or it doesn't. If it doesn't then the place you bought it from is probably liable. You bought it good faith and whether the arms vettor at the time made a mistake in passing it (people do make them) you should have some redress. If you are sure your gun cabinet meets the legal requirement and your AO won't pass it, then you can always refer the matter to police HQ's in Wellington.

As pointed out, an E-Cat gun cabinet doesn't have to have a minimum of 6mm mild steel construction only equivalent to it. The use of high tensile steel would be a case in point. Regardless, it must have a certificate stating that it meets the required standard.

Originally Posted by Jexla

Have a friend going through this with the Rotorua AO who says that a lot of E cat etc safes have been getting broken into that do not have a brand name, so that will be required.
Completely ignore professional who says it meets the standards, right?

Never heard of anything like this. If this is the true then your friend has the right to take the matter further. As pointed out above, the gun cabinet either meets the required standard or it doesn't.

I will also mention that he hasn't even sighted the safe and has already said it isn't acceptable based off knowing it does not have a brand name.

Mine doesn't have a brand name... I've peeled off the sticker.

@10-Ring

Thanks for this information from the Arms Regulation 1992.

I was already aware of the clauses that allow a Police Officer to request to see Security for Endorsed Firearms whenever they requested by a Member of the Police, at a reasonable time of day.

Respectfully, nowhere does this say that "B-Cat is yearly, E-Cat 3 is yearly" as originally quoted by yourself.

Incidentally MY AO and our area Licencing Inspector are Not "Members Of The Police".

They are "Civilian Employees" and therefore they have no powers with regard to these regulations..

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by Ryan

Mine doesn't have a brand name... I've peeled off the sticker.

Mine doesn't have a brand name either.

I made it myself.

I even issued the certificate myself.

Why?

Because I can

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

It is an annual check for B-Cat security and every three years for E-Cat in my district. I assumed it would be the same in your district.

Arms officers and firearms vettors (often retired police officers) may not be sworn officers however they are still members of the police.

10-Ring

I disagree,

Civilian Employees are not "Members of the Police",

Retired Police Officers are not "Members of the Police".

Sworn Police Officers are "Members of the Police".


Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by P38

@10-Ring

Thanks for this information from the Arms Regulation 1992.

I was already aware of the clauses that allow a Police Officer to request to see Security for Endorsed Firearms whenever they requested by a Member of the Police, at a reasonable time of day.

Respectfully, nowhere does this say that "B-Cat is yearly, E-Cat 3 is yearly" as originally quoted by yourself.

Incidentally MY AO and our area Licencing Inspector are Not "Members Of The Police".

They are "Civilian Employees" and therefore they have no powers with regard to these regulations..

Cheers
Pete

It is an annual check for B-Cat security and every three years for E-Cat in my district. I assumed it would be the same in your district.

Arms officers and firearms vettors (often retired Police officers) may not be sworn officers however they are still members of the police. The Arms Regulations section 29 does not specify Police officers but members of the Police.

Originally Posted by P38

10-Ring

I disagree, Civilian Employees are not "Members of the Police", Sworn Police Officers are "Members of the Police".


Cheers
Pete

Mouse is playing up.

Irrespective if you agree or not it is a fact. I'll find the relevant information for you when I get time.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

It is an annual check for B-Cat security and every three years for E-Cat in my district. I assumed it would be the same in your district.

Arms officers and firearms vettors (often retired Police officers) may not be sworn officers however they are still members of the police. The Arms Regulations section 29 does not specify Police officers but members of the Police.

Not to throw the cat among the pigeons here and nor am I suggesting it is law but my AO (civvy) said the same thing about endorsed firearm inspection intervals. Namely that they try and inspect B once per year and E every 3 years.

Looking forward to seeing those Facts 10-Ring.


On another note It looks likely that we'll soon be seeing the rise of Authorised Officers "AO's" (not to be confused with Arms Officers) with limited powers of a Police Officer issued under a warrant system.

Said Limited Powers could cover the Arms Act and the Arms Regulations.

A quiet revolution - the rise of the Authorised Officer | Police Association

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by P38

10-Ring

I disagree,

Civilian Employees are not "Members of the Police",

Retired Police Officers are not "Members of the Police".

Sworn Police Officers are "Members of the Police".


Cheers
Pete

Have a look at this Pete:

Arms Act 1983 (1983 No 44)

Definition of member of the Police in section 2: repeal and substitute:
member of the Police means a Police employee within the meaning of section 4 of the Policing Act


Policing Act 2008

4 Interpretation

Subpart 3—Police employees

Appointment of Police employees

18 Commissioner may appoint Police employees

(1)
The Commissioner may from time to time appoint the people that the Commissioner thinks necessary for the efficient exercise and performance of the powers, functions, and duties of the Police.

(2)
The power conferred by subsection (1) includes power to appoint people on an acting, temporary, or casual basis or for any period that the Commissioner and the employee agree.

(3)
The Commissioner may assign to a Police employee any level of position that the Commissioner considers appropriate.

(4)
Unless expressly provided to the contrary in this Act, the Commissioner has all of the rights, duties, and powers of an employer in respect of Police employees

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

Have a look at this Pete:

Arms Act 1983 (1983 No 44)

Definition of member of the Police in section 2: repeal and substitute:
member of the Police means a Police employee within the meaning of section 4 of the Policing Act


Policing Act 2008

4 Interpretation

Subpart 3—Police employees

Appointment of Police employees

18 Commissioner may appoint Police employees

(1)
The Commissioner may from time to time appoint the people that the Commissioner thinks necessary for the efficient exercise and performance of the powers, functions, and duties of the Police.

(2)
The power conferred by subsection (1) includes power to appoint people on an acting, temporary, or casual basis or for any period that the Commissioner and the employee agree.

(3)
The Commissioner may assign to a Police employee any level of position that the Commissioner considers appropriate.

(4)
Unless expressly provided to the contrary in this Act, the Commissioner has all of the rights, duties, and powers of an employer in respect of Police employees

@10-Ring

Good work

So a Civilian Employee Can be a Member of the Police under the Arms Act if specifically appoint by the Commissioner.

I guess that's where this Authorised Officer originates from.

Cheers
Pete

That would make sense - the last inspection I had was by a retired pommie ex-RAF bloke - he knew how to tick the boxes but he certainly knew f-all about firearms