Could it be so simple?

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Originally Posted by Pengy

And there in lies the rub. If one has to positively identify the target as a stag, then one has to look harder before squeezing the trigger.
All of the shooters involved are adamant that they saw and shot a deer. No mention of whether they saw a stag or whatever, simply a deer.

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I don't think you're right about that, I remember at least one report where the shooter said how certain he was that it was a deer and that he (thought he) was looking at the antlers to confirm it before shooting. How would you even really know unless you've talked to the shooter yourself? Media reports are hopelessly unreliable and would probably simplify it to "thought he saw a deer" regardless of how specific the description was.

In any case if part of the problem is confirmation bias, a shooter may well ask themself "is it a stag" instead of "is it a deer" and make a mental jump straight to yesBANG in either case - I don't know that it would make a difference in that situation, because their mind is seeing what it wants to see instead of what is actually there.

Other situations like shooters consciously/deliberately firing at what they think is a deer when they know they can't see enough of it to identify age/sex, yes it might help.

If it made it safer for us all, then I'm all for it. However it will never get off the ground here in NZ, as it attacks the root of NZ deer hunting culture (or lack of) and that's what all of this is really about, not only safety directly, but changing an overall culture. Its the reason that people will be shot every year without fail until we either A. get our guns taken from us and end up with heavy hunting restrictions placed on us or B. we as a group make an active start on changing NZ hunting culture.

Like others mentioned here, shooting hinds in the roar is at minimum, counter productive. Where there's girls there's boys etc.

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Originally Posted by stretch

So every hunter that shoots someone is inexperienced? How do YOU define (and differentiate) an experienced hunter from an inexperienced one? Once you've defined what an 'experienced' hunter is (time spent hunting? animals seen/shot?), does the act of mistakenly shooting a human revert the hunter back into the 'inexperienced' group?

To me, it seems like experience level and the ability to make lethal mistakes are not mutually exclusive and your logic that 'hunters that shoot hunters are not experienced' is flawed.

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It may be flawed to you and that is fine. But it makes perfect sense to me.

Experience in hunting is not strictly a time or how many animals you have shot thing for me. It does help imo.

It is an idividuals decision and standards process that severely reduces the risks of these events happening.








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Originally Posted by sneeze

Cant follow your logic at all really.

I laughed when he showed me the bottle but had to eat some humble pie after tasting. Given you've slurped every bottle Iv turned up with and probably cant remember what was on the label I rekon I can at least change your mind on Asian whiskey:D

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I will try any drink once I spose.

You're not even allowed to use butter so it no surprise you can't follow my logic.

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Originally Posted by Pointer

If it made it safer for us all, then I'm all for it. However it will never get off the ground here in NZ, as it attacks the root of NZ deer hunting culture (or lack of) and that's what all of this is really about, not only safety directly, but changing an overall culture. Its the reason that people will be shot every year without fail until we either A. get our guns taken from us and end up with heavy hunting restrictions placed on us or B. we as a group make an active start on changing NZ hunting culture.

Like others mentioned here, shooting hinds in the roar is at minimum, counter productive. Where there's girls there's boys etc.

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Are you suggesting countries with restrictive hunting rules and limits on what animals you can shoot at different times don't have accidental shootings? That deserves a tui sign!

Personally I have no problem with shooting a hind during the roar if I want the meat, I'm more of a meat hunter than a trophy hunter. Doesn't mean I don't identify it first though.

I wonder if there is any record of what proportion of accidental shootings were during trophy hunting vs meat hunting? Trophy hunters suggest that meat hunters don't bother identifying their target properly, meat hunters suggest that trophy hunters get hopped up on adrenaline and turn their brains off...

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Originally Posted by R93

I will try any drink once I spose.

You're not even allowed to use butter so it no surprise you can't follow my logic.

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You do like a good sized sample.

No I'm just not allowed to use YOUR butter which is just as logical:D Iv put a good amount of time looking for core sampling tools for the next trip.

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Originally Posted by sneeze

You do like a good sized sample.

No I'm just not allowed to use YOUR butter which is just as logical:D Iv put a good amount of time looking for core sampling tools for the next trip.

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Why bother the hole you dig into it would put any super pit mine to shame😆

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Originally Posted by R93

Why bother the hole you dig into it would put any super pit mine to shame��

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I do it for a living, hard to switch off.

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Originally Posted by HNTMAD

Disagree. Shouldn't matter what sort of deer it us. Hind, fawn. 6 or 16 You shouldn't shoot a human, maybe they could enforce that at the road ends

Just Identify your target

Hamish

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I think that you , along with the majority of NZ hunters, are afraid of change. Non of us want a nanny state telling us what we can and cant do, but if we keep on doing what we always done, then we are going to keep on getting what we always got.
If we as a collective don't act, then the powers that be WILL act .

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Originally Posted by Pengy

I think that you , along with the majority of NZ hunters, are afraid of change. Non of us want a nanny state telling us what we can and cant do, but if we keep on doing what we always done, then we are going to keep on getting what we always got.
If we as a collective don't act, then the powers that be WILL act .

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So change the arms code from Identify your target and have it say, Tell everyone where you are hunting so they dont shoot you??

Its not about change, Nothing wrong with whats there, simple thing is you need to identify your target. adding in all these other things is taking away from identifying your target.

Even doing target identification course with a pass or fail is not going to work, It is set up in a false environement and cant emulate being in the heat of the battle.

This is me speaking from seeing what i thought was a deer and it wasnt, it is also me leaving notes about where i am hunting (yes i do this in busy times) and still having a fark tard shoot past me and my son

It is human until proven (identify your target) otherwise, Not hard

You say the powers to be will change, So will they remove public holidays so there are not so many cars on the road, or enforce even days mean even street numbers drive?? How many Hunters in NZ v annual Deaths?? then look at drivers and deaths. Yes it matters to us the hunters and hits us harder than non hunters, They have stopped talking about it and we still are!! Has it made me more anxious to get out in the hills, hell yes. I have heard 4 more "close call or shear fark you attitudes in the last 2 weeks and thats in wellington alone. 2 of which were a father son combo so the father is not teaching the next generation good habbits, I hunt every weekend for 52 weeks of the year and it is only over this time i feel scared to go on my own. It shouldn't be this way

I say again, Identify your target beyond all doubt and life will be spared, even if the powers to be change things it will still happen, it is a fact of participating in a sport where we carry a device that kills things

Hamish

Not at all Gravelben, I'm merely saying that if you want a meat animal there is the rest of the year to shoot one, say for example in spring when they are easy work and eating the good stuff, as opposed to going out in a very busy time of year and crowding a finite resource. That's what I believe the original post was about, curbing the 'I have to come home with something mentality' not changing laws. Changing a culture of an entire group. No easy task.


Driving back through the Waioeka gorge from Gisborne this weekend, 25 wagons all at various entry points. Scary

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Originally Posted by Steve123

The problem with any rule limiting what you can shoot is DOC. Their goal is to wipe out not manage. Maybe the only way is make a DOC permit conditional on doing a target ID course and test every 5 or so years. It could be done as a condition of obtaining a licence as well.

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Not if Deer come under management of the Game Animal Council.
I am pro the use of a species / sex / season permit. It worked in US and Canada to aid species / sex management and reduce hunter fatalities. The problem in NZ is ingrained "if its brown, its down" thing.

And whats wrong with taking hinds now?? Hind culling is ideal for deer management, and frankly, they are IMHO perfect for taking now - not really pregnant, in good condition, and last years fawn has been booted out to look after itself.

Im with Hamish on this one.

Its quite simple you cannot shoot someone with out breaking 1 or more of the following rules, more rules wont change this in the slightest.

Now i do agree that something has to change. I remember when i went for my fal and there was only 10 of the 18 or so people who passed the test to begin with.
I hung around talking to a few people and looking at the different types of firearms end the end everyone walked away with a pass.

I think when thats your only safety net some people are doomed to fail and yes i might take 20 - 30 years for that failure to happen.
I would like to see something like the NZDA Hunts program for everyone looking to get into hunting,
A Shooting Range use program for those looking to get into target shooting

This will set a good foundation around the basics of active firearms handling in scenarios that's relevant and easy to apply in different situations.

@HNTMAD can you honestly not see how having to identify sex and quality of an animal would not make people identify the target more clearly??? It's all about that extra 2 seconds it takes for people to have a better look then just snap shooting at a moving bush.

And killing someone in a car crash is hardly the same as deliberately pulling the trigger with the intention to kill

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Originally Posted by PerazziSC3

@HNTMAD can you honestly not see how having to identify sex and quality of an animal would not make people identify the target more clearly??? It's all about that extra 2 seconds it takes for people to have a better look then just snap shooting at a moving bush.

And killing someone in a car crash is hardly the same as deliberately pulling the trigger with the intention to kill

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Shit mate. If your not doing this already you got rocks in your head and need to get out of the bush.

You get me wrong. I practice that now, it forms my decision before shooting weather a quick shot in bush or more leisurely at greater distance than 20-30m. At all times like others it is human until otherwise so back to the original rule of identifying your target beyond all doubt. Pretty simple really, no need to complicate things

Hamish

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The OP suggested posed a really poinient question, even if adopted as only a personal limitation it does have a lot of merit.
This should be a positive discussion where new ideas are encouraged.
The solution lies with individuals at its root level, constructive discussion will broaden everyone's awareness and enhance personal safe guards regarding this matter.
My question is.... will you share any simple personal checks and processes you apply in identifying your quarry?

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Originally Posted by Moutere

The OP suggested posed a really poinient question, even if adopted as only a personal limitation it does have a lot of merit.
This should be a positive discussion where new ideas are encouraged.
The solution lies with individuals at its root level, constructive discussion will broaden everyone's awareness and enhance personal safe guards regarding this matter.
My question is.... will you share any simple personal checks and processes you apply in identifying your quarry?

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Sex of quarry and a guess at age is what I do. Add to that a clear sight picture and I'm pretty confident I am safe.

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Originally Posted by HNTMAD

Shit mate. If your not doing this already you got rocks in your head and need to get out of the bush.

You get me wrong. I practice that now, it forms my decision before shooting weather a quick shot in bush or more leisurely at greater distance than 20-30m. At all times like others it is human until otherwise so back to the original rule of identifying your target beyond all doubt. Pretty simple really, no need to complicate things

Hamish

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Well the facts are people aren't doing that! A bit of advertising around this wouldn't hurt surely? I give mates shit when they shoot a scrubber or hind in the roar.

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Originally Posted by Moutere

The OP suggested posed a really poinient question, even if adopted as only a personal limitation it does have a lot of merit.
This should be a positive discussion where new ideas are encouraged.
The solution lies with individuals at its root level, constructive discussion will broaden everyone's awareness and enhance personal safe guards regarding this matter.
My question is.... will you share any simple personal checks and processes you apply in identifying your quarry?

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As said above, I can't remember the last time I went out just to shoot something, I'm always targeting a particular animal.. Generally Spring I will be looking for a well conditioned younger animal, Feb/roar will be looking for a stag that I would be happy to carry the head out a fair way along with the meat. In winter if I need meat then I will smack most things but as above I'm still fully identifying a guessed age and sex cause I don't want to end up with an old skinny hind.

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Originally Posted by 199p

Its quite simple you cannot shoot someone with out breaking 1 or more of the following rules, more rules wont change this in the slightest.

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That's it in a nut shell, it is the application of the current cardinal rules here that is the issue.

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Originally Posted by 199p

I would like to see something like the NZDA Hunts program for everyone looking to get into hunting,
A Shooting Range use program for those looking to get into target shooting

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Respectfully, I am not in favour of such blanket requirements. The NZDA Hunts program is already there for those who choose to attend it.
Maybe at most, make such a thing a condition to access to public land for hunting. But as you said yourself more rules won't change things.
Statistically, on a range is not where shooting deaths occur either, why try and solve a problem that doesn't exist. I could easily see a licence costing upwards of $600 in our user pays system for no net gain overall.

To engage about this as a user group, either here online, hunting shows on TV, magazines, at retailers, at the range and socially among our peers.
To be proactive as a user group.
That is something NZDA could certainly spear head.

I am now a strictly a trophy hunter during the winter months. It is now the only time I will bother to bush hunt.

I do not hunt bush during the warmer months as there is no need.

Hunting country I know will produce the class of animal I want is the first step.
I halve my time actually looking for animals by reading the sign. If I see sign that interests me I will try and get a look at the animal making it.
If I catch up with it, I want to get a bloody good look at it.
I am admittedly not that sharp at assessing them and have underestimated animals in the past. So I am never in a rush.

I am also fully aware the percentages of seeing a deer I want are really low in the first place as they are extremely rare.
When I started out trophy hunting 10 years ago I was hunting with someone who has been doing it his whole life. I have ton of respect for this bloke. He told me of a big 10 he seen 2 years before in an area we were hunting. He was sure if it was alive it would be a good one.
Long story short I found it and it was better than expected. To this day he is still the largest red I have seen on foot since I have been hunting.
Anyway, a comment made by my mate was in the back of my mind as I watched this stag from 50 meters in open beech forest. "What ever you do , don't shoot it in the head ya filthy meat shooter, you will trash the head skin."

I could have shot this stag in the head 50 times over in the amount of time I spent watching it. I didn't, out of fear of dissappointing my mate. I never got that animal.
Knowing what I do now, I really regret not drilling him behind the ear.😆

Since then I have only seen maybe 2 deer that I would want. One never showed back up and the other has someone else's name on it.
But I am in no hurry and all going well I will find one in the next 20 years😆





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Originally Posted by PerazziSC3

@HNTMAD can you honestly not see how having to identify sex and quality of an animal would not make people identify the target more clearly??? It's all about that extra 2 seconds it takes for people to have a better look then just snap shooting at a moving bush.

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Someone who snap shoots at a moving bush isn't identifying their target at all, and isn't going to start taking more care just because there is suddenly another rule on top of the ones they already ignore.

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Originally Posted by Pointer

Not at all Gravelben, I'm merely saying that if you want a meat animal there is the rest of the year to shoot one, say for example in spring when they are easy work and eating the good stuff, as opposed to going out in a very busy time of year and crowding a finite resource. That's what I believe the original post was about, curbing the 'I have to come home with something mentality' not changing laws.

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Fair enough, that makes more sense and I have a similar attitude to the roar - I mostly avoid hunting public bush (especially popular areas) at that time, happy to leave it to trophy hunters for a while and reduce my chances of encountering armed idiots.

Its pretty simple don't shoot people