Thread: Could we do more

After a long chat with a arms officer I will outline a few things she said and ask you a few questions. Plenty of police hate on here so you will probably hate me too after this.
Almost all drug busts dope/meths firearms are found.
I /we would be surprised the number of law abiding usually older rural people that have a gun with no licence and the number of rifles stored behind the door under the bed or in the wardrobe.
Its not unusual for a safe to be ripped of the wall and stolen and when the bolt and ammo are in the safe they have usable saleable guns.
People have no idea of the serial numbers they own, so when firearms are recovered we cant find the owner or link them to a theft.
So I ask you---is your safe / cabinet secure and well fixed. Big washers on the fixings. If you wanted to get into it or rip it off the wall how easy is it.
Bolts and ammo, are yours separate. If not why. You may have many guns or other reasons but the little box in the top of the safe is no better than the bolt in the gun.
Serial numbers, do you have a list of your serial numbers. If the worst happened could you say to the police this is what was taken and the serial numbers are ???. New laws coming and I think we could have done more in the past. I am off to take a note of my serial numbers as I don't have a clue what they are. Your thoughts, do you still love me or is it all over between us.

Yea mate, those serial numbers are gonna stop those crim's dead in their tracks.
To answer your question about safe security: I wouldn't have a problem if everyone needed to store firearms in a safe as opposed to a locked hot water cupboard etc

However if they want it they will get it

Serial numbers can easily be "scratched" anyway...

Yes I knew the serial number thing would get the hackles up. But if the weapon is recovered the serial number if still there links that gun to that theft and back to you. If your car gets nicked you don't say it was a red Ferrari with 2 big fluffy dice hanging from the mirror. I never said data base, I said do you know your numbers so they can be passed onto police if you loose a rifle.

Originally Posted by chindit

Yes I knew the serial number thing would get the hackles up. But if the weapon is recovered the serial number if still there links that gun to that theft and back to you. If your car gets nicked you don't say it was a red Ferrari with 2 big fluffy dice hanging from the mirror. I never said data base, I said do you know your numbers so they can be passed onto police if you loose a rifle.

Not so much getting hackles up :-) but it's a genuine question.

I'm an endorsed license holder, so my gear is already registered with the Police. On a database too. But if the guns turn up as a result of a burglary, the Police would already know they were stolen, because I told them ? I'm just perplexed at how Police knowing every single firearms serial number will actually help, when there is already a (claimed) large number of illegally held firearms.

Lax security of gun owners - "don't give a shit I'll do what I like and keep the gun under the bed" or bare minimum security because they don't want to spend the money, and a very low clearance rate of solving burglary, are the 2 biggest problems that face us at the moment. Followed by a judiciary who seem to view firearms offences on the lower end of the scale. And rounded off with opportunist politicians who love to grandstand and get their name in the news for another 24 hours.

As already mentioned, the current Police/AO situation is woefully under resourced, so adding more work and duties to them without a significant budget/people increase won't fix this magical problem of firearms being in the hands of those who legally shouldn't have them.

This sounds like another 'heather' conversation.

Originally Posted by Kscott

I'm just perplexed at how Police knowing every single firearms serial number will actually help, when there is already a (claimed) large number of illegally held firearms.

He never said anything about police knowing all serial numbers did he? Just that its not a bad idea for firearms owners to record the serial numbers they own.

Which I agree with tbh - if your firearms are stolen then a record of the serial numbers could be a rather useful piece of evidence for prosecuting the thieves if they are found in possession. Not so easy to prove the firearms they have are the same ones stolen from you without that information.

Yes they could be filed off or whatever, but using that as a reason not to record them is like arguing that you don't need good security because a serious enough thief will still get through.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

He never said anything about police knowing all serial numbers did he? Just that its not a bad idea for firearms owners to record the serial numbers they own.

Very true.

I do feel though that those who do keep a copy of serial numbers, and ensure they have adequate security, are the minority of firearms license holders.

I'm with @Beavis, I've got little faith that any of my gear that would be stolen could actually be returned to me. Which is a shame, living in quiet, little ol' NZ.

Originally Posted by chindit

Serial numbers, do you have a list of your serial numbers. If the worst happened could you say to the police this is what was taken and the serial numbers are ???.

I had a similar chat with a work colleague over the weekend. My question which I repeated over and over - what exactly will Police knowing what the serial number is, achieve ?

It won't stop burglary.
It won't stop idiots who don't secure their firearms.
It won't stop those who are already in illegal possession of a firearm.
It will create a massive workload on an under-resourced department.

Originally Posted by Kscott

I had a similar chat with a work colleague over the weekend. My question which I repeated over and over - what exactly will Police knowing what the serial number is, achieve ?

It won't stop burglary.
It won't stop idiots who don't secure their firearms.
It won't stop those who are already in illegal possession of a firearm.
It will create a massive workload on an under-resourced department.

Was that Heather?

I have no issues with numbers been logged as I have nothing to hide however it is only the “good guys” who would submit their numbers.
Rural firearms are a way of life. They won’t go into Fort Knox everytime there is a rabbit, possum or Magpie out the back door then put it back after
The drug growers, cooks and dealers have illegal firearms for their own protection against their own kind.
For a system to work it has to start sometime

Originally Posted by sako75

Was that Heather?

??? no, the lady in question, her name is Kimberly.

Originally Posted by Kscott

I had a similar chat with a work colleague over the weekend. My question which I repeated over and over - what exactly will Police knowing what the serial number is, achieve ?

It won't stop burglary. Actually by helping to identify stolen firearms and link them back to a specific occurence offenders will be able to be linked and often prosecuted, helping prevent futhur offending.
It won't stop idiots who don't secure their firearms. Nope, but just because it doesn't fix all problems doesn't make it a wasted effort.
It won't stop those who are already in illegal possession of a firearm. Nope, but it might help prosecute them in the future.
It will create a massive workload on an under-resourced department. Nope, it won't make any difference.

Bottom line, if all people actually recorded thier own serial numbers and passed them to Police when their firearms were stolen then a lot more firearms would be returned to their owners rather than destroyed and criminals linked to specific offences, and prosecuted. Just like VINs and number plates on stolen cars. Sure an angle grinder can remove the numbers, however most won't bother, just like they don't bother removing VIN numbers.

why exactly do police need more rules when it seems they are struggling to do the job under existing rules.The endless stream of individual AO rulings on here suggests to me that in fact POLICE HQ has not come to terms with existing regulations and issued a specific policy for ALL to utilise.
Hows about the judiciary and the polis get tougher on crims-me i'd give em a compulsory 5yrs extra for every firearm found illegally-no questions no discussions ,no bloody time off for contrition.that sentence to be served on a prison farm in the wapwaps of the waioru army training ground-discomfort gives a crim time to reflect.
BTW-I am not criticising individual police-more the bloody base wallahs and shinyarsed biro pushers at police national HQ who are highly paid to write SOPs/policys

I think both could do better. It needs to come from the top though and be consistent. When gear goes missing the police don't generally bother, other than sending you a form letter to say they acknowledge your gear got pilfered. They are not helped by the wet ticket brigade and limited funding either.

I do know of one traffic copper that had his wagon stolen and was not impressed by the lack of effort of his colleagues. In the end he did some sniffing around himself and ended up busting a theft, breakdown and export ring. Ended up with his wagon back to boot.

To be honest I think the Police HQ need to have a better look in their own backyard to find solutions rather than making it more difficult for the law abiding. If they made more of an effort to stop people becoming career criminals by more effective measures earlier in their careers things would improve.

A change to the way firearms are stored makes sense, a chain round the however cylinder is stupid, everyone should at least have a safe, doesn't take much to have bolts in a small toolbox screwed to the floor in a different room. As others have said serial number tracking starts down a slippery slope...