Firearms Project Community Discussion Sessions: FCAF update

[ebf]

@Ryan, I attended as an individual license holder, not representing any particular organization.

COLFO, or some of the clubs/organizations may well release some info.

There is also a livestream of the meeting that was recorded by FOUNZ on their Faceplant page.

What I will say is that if you value shooting and the benefits of having your firearms license, make all reasonable efforts to attend one of the sessions or at least ensure that someone who represents you does so...

[Sideshow]

Back from the Welly meeting. Around 20 shooting folk turned up, ranging from dealers, organizations such as service rifle, colfo, airsoft, pistol clubs, and individual license/endorsement holders.

Purpose of the meetings are two-fold:

1) to have meetings with local firearms staff, hence the timing/locations that may not make sense to some (they met with the Wellingtion, Hutt, Wairarapa etc staff this morning)
2) engaging with fire-arms community

Basically facilitated session where they are asking what is working, and what the pain points are...

Are they want to know what the pain points are....let me clear my throat 1. Cahill and his lying! 2.Poor customer service (waiting times in regards to license printing and processing) sure I missed a few but not a bad start

[Sasquatch]

Not long watched the video of the Wellington meeting, some good points were made. Ken from NZAR15 & Steve from Burley arms raised some very valid issues of the inconsistencies dealers are faced with from NZPHQ.

From what I heard, nothing sounded radical to me.

[Boaraxa]

20 people from the capital is woeful

[ebf]

20 people from the capital is woeful

Hopefully more people make an effort to attend the other meetings.

Had a quick count as we went up to the meeting, I got to 18.

At least 3 were dealers. 2 from airsoft. 2 I knew as COLFO reps. So about 10 others....

[308]

20 people from the capital is woeful

I would have gone but had to work and I'd imagine that a lot of others would be in the same boat

[Gillie]

Well I have just got back from the New Plymouth meeting (only maybe ~15 attendees). A very frank and open discussion about how Police are administering the act and what/how improvements could be made. Overriding themes were improving consistency (in everything from handling applications, to permit approval times, in vetting and referee interviews, in assessing security requirements, etc.), and also improving communication (both with the shooting community and particularly the media).

One of the suggestions was that when Police (NOT their Union) could post communication bulletins on their website i.e. when they are asked to comment or are interviewed for something a transcript of the discussion could be posted to take out the media bias in only quoting a small proportion of a discussion (potentially out of context), or they could write their own firearms update blog (license application numbers, firearm import numbers, firearms related offences, security threats and failures, etc.) basically along the lines on what KiwiGunBlog does but do it themselves.

A whole bunch of other specific points were brought up and discussed as well around forms, vetting approach, criminal misuse and sentencing, etc. Yes, the timing and communication of the meetings was discussed as well.

Mike was certainly approachable and it was good to see him take direct points (without watering them down) and acknowledge improvements that could be made.

I hope that they take our feedback on board and suitable improvements happen.


Very interesting to hear Mike talk and explain the new practical portion of new licence application process. It will be interesting to see this get implemented.

[ebf]

Simon, when he introduced the team he had brought, did he mention anything about a Police Association rep being present ?

Curious how they are going to deal with this after they did this in the Welly session.

Would also be good for guys around the country to specifically ask at the start if a Police Association representative is present and why.

[Gillie]

@ebf - no, he did not identify or introduce a Police Association representative. We had a different facilitator than the Wellington meeting as well.

There was some discussion about the perception of the Police Association and how they are damaging the relationship between the Police and firearms community. Hence the suggestion Police publish their own facts rather than have the firearms community only seeing small quotes taken potentially out of context, Police Association propaganda, or the media bias.

[MrDrifter]

It was interesting at the Wellington session to see how adamant Mike was to make clear the Police and the Police Association are different entities. The PA representative was also very adamant they weren't a spokesperson and didn't engage any further.

The audience suggested that Police call out that distinction more often in the media as the public had a perception that the Police and PA are the same and speak for each other.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

[Danger Mouse]

It was interesting at the Wellington session to see how adamant Mike was to make clear the Police and the Police Association are different entities. The PA representative was also very adamant they weren't a spokesperson and didn't engage any further.

The audience suggested that Police call out that distinction more often in the media as the public had a perception that the Police and PA are the same and speak for each other.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

Last time I checked, cahills bio on the police association web site says he IS a detective inspector. I get the impression he is playing both sides of the fence representing himself as a police officer to establish delegated authority, and saying he is police association when it suits him - IPCA won't look at him and he has no accountability to nz police

[ebf]

Last time I checked, cahills bio on the police association web site says he IS a detective inspector. I get the impression he is playing both sides of the fence representing himself as a police officer to establish delegated authority, and saying he is police association when it suits him - IPCA won't look at him and he has no accountability to nz police

And that is exactly what Cahill is there to do. The police specifically point out that the Police Association is a separate organization (it is a union for rank-and-file officers).

What it means is that the police association can (and do) say things in the media which the NZ Police can not be seen to be saying...

It is time we as the firearms community start playing the same game. Some are already...

You will not get the IPCA to investigate the Police Association, nor will you get anywhere bitching to the NZ Police about them...

[Cordite]

If you read the purpose of the meetings it is to discuss how to interact and deliver services to the firearms community. So a pretty narrow scope they are wanting to deal with. This is not about the actual laws, rules, etc.

@gadgetman

They say that, but whatever comes out of it that suits them, they'll use for other agendas too, like shooters figuratively throwing other shooters under the bus. Not being cynical, just realistic.

[ebf]

@Cordite, I find the whole concept of "shooters throwing other shooters under the bus" a bit strange.

To expect all firearms users to share the same views is madness... People from all walks of life are firearms users, they have different requirements. To expect that a recreational hunter would have the same requirements as a top level Olympic or Comonwealth athlete is beyond me. Throw in some pistol shooters, service rifle competitors and the odd collector and you have about as diverse a group as you can get.

Maybe I am just involved in a wide verity of firearms activities (I loooooove shooting ), but to be honest I think there is more that unites us than what divides us. Where things go pear-shaped is when people start expecting my views and requirements to match theirs EXACTLY and start thinking of me as a "traitor" when I have views that differ from theirs.

[Cordite]

I was at todays meeting , and I will put my hand up and say that I suggested the idea of the Police having a web page that was updated often with relevant information. I think that was reasonably received , and we may see that sometime in the future.

The Police are not going to muzzle that idiot Cahill. That is patently obvious - the Police appear unwilling to even discuss issues with him. I asked what they were going to do to counteract the outright lies that the guy tells and I got a sanitized , politicians answer that basically went " blah blah blah" - so dont expect to see anything there. Very little interest in countering those lies in the media , and not a very popular view of social media either .

But - Mike did listen , take notes , and appeared to be genuine . Only time will tell , I am not holding my breath waiting...

@muzza

Yes. Next time Cahill opens his mouth to spout rubbish, maybe best to simply state the facts. Then spend the rest of our energy on pointing out HOW CAHILL, AGAIN, IS IRRESPONSIBLY DAMAGING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LFAO'S AND POLICE.

Decent rank and file cops need to know they have someone harmful [mis]representing them!

Cahill was made NZPA President in 2016 for a three year term, and so is up for re-election October 2019 at the Annual NZPA Conference if he seeks re-election. If keen on re-election, one would naturally expect Cahill to seek as much publicity, likely at LFAOs expense, over the coming year and a bit. . He needs to get called out for what damage he is causing with his mouth, but less engagement with his rubbish.

@ebf

Yes, slightly differing views will always be with us. The only real problem out there for shooters is apathy. And that most of us choose to work for our living and so we can't go to the meetings.