To me it sounds more like your AO was describing the Police Association's President.Quote:
Originally Posted by muzza
+1 On recording the meetings.
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To me it sounds more like your AO was describing the Police Association's President.Quote:
Originally Posted by muzza
+1 On recording the meetings.
Similar to the map stretch posted about Auckland district, the Welly police district includes Wairarapa up to Masterton and beyond Martinborough, so Upper Hutt is centrally located if you look at it from a geographical perspective.
Heading to the meeting in a bit and will see how it turns out :)
If you read the purpose of the meetings it is to discuss how to interact and deliver services to the firearms community. So a pretty narrow scope they are wanting to deal with. This is not about the actual laws, rules, etc.
Back from the Welly meeting. Around 20 shooting folk turned up, ranging from dealers, organizations such as service rifle, colfo, airsoft, pistol clubs, and individual license/endorsement holders.
Purpose of the meetings are two-fold:
1) to have meetings with local firearms staff, hence the timing/locations that may not make sense to some (they met with the Wellingtion, Hutt, Wairarapa etc staff this morning)
2) engaging with fire-arms community
Basically facilitated session where they are asking what is working, and what the pain points are...
Are you able to please provide a synopsis of what was discussed?Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
@Ryan, I attended as an individual license holder, not representing any particular organization.
COLFO, or some of the clubs/organizations may well release some info.
There is also a livestream of the meeting that was recorded by FOUNZ on their Faceplant page.
What I will say is that if you value shooting and the benefits of having your firearms license, make all reasonable efforts to attend one of the sessions or at least ensure that someone who represents you does so...
Are they want to know what the pain points are....let me clear my throat;) 1. Cahill and his lying! 2.Poor customer service (waiting times in regards to license printing and processing) sure I missed a few but not a bad startQuote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Not long watched the video of the Wellington meeting, some good points were made. Ken from NZAR15 & Steve from Burley arms raised some very valid issues of the inconsistencies dealers are faced with from NZPHQ.
From what I heard, nothing sounded radical to me.
20 people from the capital is woeful
Hopefully more people make an effort to attend the other meetings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boaraxa
Had a quick count as we went up to the meeting, I got to 18.
At least 3 were dealers. 2 from airsoft. 2 I knew as COLFO reps. So about 10 others....
I would have gone but had to work and I'd imagine that a lot of others would be in the same boatQuote:
Originally Posted by Boaraxa
Well I have just got back from the New Plymouth meeting (only maybe ~15 attendees). A very frank and open discussion about how Police are administering the act and what/how improvements could be made. Overriding themes were improving consistency (in everything from handling applications, to permit approval times, in vetting and referee interviews, in assessing security requirements, etc.), and also improving communication (both with the shooting community and particularly the media).
One of the suggestions was that when Police (NOT their Union) could post communication bulletins on their website i.e. when they are asked to comment or are interviewed for something a transcript of the discussion could be posted to take out the media bias in only quoting a small proportion of a discussion (potentially out of context), or they could write their own firearms update blog (license application numbers, firearm import numbers, firearms related offences, security threats and failures, etc.) basically along the lines on what KiwiGunBlog does but do it themselves.
A whole bunch of other specific points were brought up and discussed as well around forms, vetting approach, criminal misuse and sentencing, etc. Yes, the timing and communication of the meetings was discussed as well.
Mike was certainly approachable and it was good to see him take direct points (without watering them down) and acknowledge improvements that could be made.
I hope that they take our feedback on board and suitable improvements happen.
Very interesting to hear Mike talk and explain the new practical portion of new licence application process. It will be interesting to see this get implemented.
Simon, when he introduced the team he had brought, did he mention anything about a Police Association rep being present ?
Curious how they are going to deal with this after they did this in the Welly session.
Would also be good for guys around the country to specifically ask at the start if a Police Association representative is present and why.
@ebf - no, he did not identify or introduce a Police Association representative. We had a different facilitator than the Wellington meeting as well.
There was some discussion about the perception of the Police Association and how they are damaging the relationship between the Police and firearms community. Hence the suggestion Police publish their own facts rather than have the firearms community only seeing small quotes taken potentially out of context, Police Association propaganda, or the media bias.
It was interesting at the Wellington session to see how adamant Mike was to make clear the Police and the Police Association are different entities. The PA representative was also very adamant they weren't a spokesperson and didn't engage any further.
The audience suggested that Police call out that distinction more often in the media as the public had a perception that the Police and PA are the same and speak for each other.
Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk
Last time I checked, cahills bio on the police association web site says he IS a detective inspector. I get the impression he is playing both sides of the fence representing himself as a police officer to establish delegated authority, and saying he is police association when it suits him - IPCA won't look at him and he has no accountability to nz policeQuote:
Originally Posted by MrDrifter
And that is exactly what Cahill is there to do. The police specifically point out that the Police Association is a separate organization (it is a union for rank-and-file officers).Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Mouse
What it means is that the police association can (and do) say things in the media which the NZ Police can not be seen to be saying...
It is time we as the firearms community start playing the same game. Some are already...
You will not get the IPCA to investigate the Police Association, nor will you get anywhere bitching to the NZ Police about them...
@gadgetmanQuote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
They say that, but whatever comes out of it that suits them, they'll use for other agendas too, like shooters figuratively throwing other shooters under the bus. Not being cynical, just realistic.
@Cordite, I find the whole concept of "shooters throwing other shooters under the bus" a bit strange.
To expect all firearms users to share the same views is madness... People from all walks of life are firearms users, they have different requirements. To expect that a recreational hunter would have the same requirements as a top level Olympic or Comonwealth athlete is beyond me. Throw in some pistol shooters, service rifle competitors and the odd collector and you have about as diverse a group as you can get.
Maybe I am just involved in a wide verity of firearms activities (I loooooove shooting :thumbsup:), but to be honest I think there is more that unites us than what divides us. Where things go pear-shaped is when people start expecting my views and requirements to match theirs EXACTLY and start thinking of me as a "traitor" when I have views that differ from theirs.
@muzzaQuote:
Originally Posted by muzza
Yes. Next time Cahill opens his mouth to spout rubbish, maybe best to simply state the facts. Then spend the rest of our energy on pointing out HOW CAHILL, AGAIN, IS IRRESPONSIBLY DAMAGING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LFAO'S AND POLICE.
Decent rank and file cops need to know they have someone harmful [mis]representing them!
Cahill was made NZPA President in 2016 for a three year term, and so is up for re-election October 2019 at the Annual NZPA Conference if he seeks re-election. If keen on re-election, one would naturally expect Cahill to seek as much publicity, likely at LFAOs expense, over the coming year and a bit. . He needs to get called out for what damage he is causing with his mouth, but less engagement with his rubbish.
@ebf
Yes, slightly differing views will always be with us. The only real problem out there for shooters is apathy. And that most of us choose to work for our living and so we can't go to the meetings.
The main divide between shooters that is most apparent to me has been between average-jo duck & deer hunters and people who shoot pistols/MSSA's. Their concept on the matter is "we don't need those type of guns" - We certainly wouldn't use them hunting so those guns should be gone. Even some pistol shooters are anti MSSA's.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
When you take a step back and try and look at it from an outside perspective, we all share a common hobby/sport we all enjoy. Why should one overrule the other? Just because one group might be a minority doesn't make them any less important. That it why we need to stand together on this critical matter and defend each others discipline.
I care about deer hunters/long range shooters/clay-bird shooters - You name it! So they should return the favour.
Hi @SasquatchQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
I'm sorry about pissing into your "high-capacity" magazines some months ago.
(I did achieve to fill four of them though, helped in all fairness by the displacement of the cartridges).
@Cordite If memory serves me right was that about service rifle shooting? No need for an apology your're all good :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
This very thing was bought up at the Taupo meeting. One particular gentleman got very vocal about how MSSA's and A cat semi autos are useless for hunting, and that all of them should be restricted to E endorsement holders, because A cat shooters shouldn't have the same firepower as the police. Ironically didn't have an issue with 10/22's or semi auto shotguns. Got very excited again when somebody mentioned E cat security should be the standard across the board, said it would alienate too many people...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
One of the main things to come out of our discussion, was that there should be an escalation for when you are having a dispute with an arms officer, without needing to take legal action, or attempt to use the IPCA (who are antigun and always rule in favour of police it seems)
Did anyone counter that man's argument @Beavis?
I struggle with people who choose to be that deliberately naive. Little does that ridiculous man know, LFAO's will always have more firepower then the police which is a pointless remark regardless.
Yup agree with what you guys are saying.
Those differences were clear in Welly as well. What gets me is that most of the B and E endorsement holders are very well aware of the fact that they need to be self policing their mates. It is in their interest to do so. We do not have the same understanding amongst the average A license holders.
Excellent point about escalation @Beavis, hopefully that gets some traction.
I pointed out that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
There really isn't much evidance to call for that - our firearm crime is really low, despite the proliferation of semi auto rifles
The same A cat shooter can go to the local gun store and get a Beretta Extrema and fill it up with buck shot, have an equally deadly weapon depending on the circumstances
But the conversation got shut down by Mike because it was irrelevant to the meeting.
We also recommended that payment for licensing be facilitated online - Mike was keen on this, more or less said it should be a given in this day and age.
I bought up examples of AO's interpreting the arms act to suit their own prejudices or what not. Mike stated that it is a training issue and they had dropped the ball on this. I also mentioned that front counter staff should be able to handle mail order forms without fobbing it off as no their responsibility. Another training issue to be resolved.
Yup Napier went much the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beavis
Had fudd and son hunters there, trying to suggest there should also be a practical element to getting E cat also as well as the changes to getting a standard license, then when question about it started to tell us about the fully auto firearms we were shooting.
Was quickly cut down, but made a nuisance the rest of the meeting.
Mike asked me to email him details about my gas block import permit saga after telling him about it. Whilst he seemed genuine at the time, I continue to have little faith anything will come from it.
Link about the gas block import permit story: https://www.facebook.com/firearmowne...65547177117866
I had a sit down with McIlraith a year ago about the website idea. He gave me the same shit. I followed up and even spoke to his tech guy about it. Same patronizing shit. Its something they could do fast and cheep and solve a lot of small issues. But no.Quote:
Originally Posted by muzza
They didnt even invite dealers. Or clubs. They just want to tick the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pengy
Yeah.... COLFO are defending it. Saying that we need to understand that police are fitting us in around other things. Wow. You spoil us. Is this how a side chick feels?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Henry
No. He is a time share salesman. Pure bullshit. I showed him that police had invented law in a mail order form. He agreed immediately. Nothing happened for months. After it was publicized too much for his liking. Zero trust left for the man. Have had MANY other dealings with him where he displays utter contempt.
Backcut, is the "he" you are referring to here McIlraith or someone in COLFO?Quote:
Originally Posted by Backcut
morons. or moreoffsQuote:
Originally Posted by Jexla
No,fudds who think firearms controls will stop at ‘a’ category definition.I did invite them to a club where they could see b and e cat guns but they didn’t take me up...
Fudds mentality is poison to the firearms community. If you applied their "logic" to transport we would have no fast cars or motorbikes on our roads.
I get that.But what do we do?
@marky123Quote:
Originally Posted by marky123
COLFO or FOUNZ might publish a version of The Arms Code, firmly based on the law, with FAQs addressing issues which clearly need clarification.
We all feel like doing this to them. But I think persistence is key and to just keep doing what we're doing. Fudd has already had something to say at the meetings so far and will continue too. We need to be there and help re-educate them. Well done to the guys that spoke up and posted your comments on here.