Thread: Firearms in Vehicles

Originally Posted by gadgetman

Well of the three vehicles I've had stolen in about five years only one was recovered. And it doesn't take long for them to steal one.

Perhaps I haven't explained my position clearly, that being 'The taking of all reasonable steps' to prevent the thieft of firearms and not putting oneself in a situation where a firearm is carried in public potentially causing alarm etc.
Granted the law is incomplete on the matter of firearms transport, but that does not mean that responsible owners cannot go beyond what is required to secure their firearms. Mine are locked to the vehicle when in transit. If I have to leave the vehicle the bolt is carried on my person

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Perhaps I haven't explained my position clearly, that being 'The taking of all reasonable steps' to prevent the thieft of firearms and not putting oneself in a situation where a firearm is carried in public potentially causing alarm etc.
Granted the law is incomplete on the matter of firearms transport, but that does not mean that responsible owners cannot go beyond what is required to secure their firearms. Mine are locked to the vehicle when in transit. If I have to leave the vehicle the bolt is carried on my person

But it is illegal to do so. It is clearly stated in the statutes. Therefore taking with you to avoid breaking such a clearly laid out law must be a legitimate purpose.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

But it is illegal to do so. It is clearly stated in the statutes. Therefore taking with you to avoid breaking such a clearly laid out law must be a legitimate purpose.

I repeat: It is not illegal to have a lockbox. It is not a rigid section of law. It is written to allow the Police discretion ' Carrying or possessing a firearm without a lawful, proper and sufficient purpose'. The Police get to make a call on 'sufficient purpose'. A non discretionary section would likely be in regard to blood alcohol levels. Good luck taking your firearm into the BNZ, I will leave mine in the vehicle, parked in sight, in a lock box, bolt removed. Tell us how you get on at the bank testing 'legitimate purpose'

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

I repeat: It is not illegal to have a lockbox. It is not a rigid section of law. It is written to allow the Police discretion ' Carrying or possessing a firearm without a lawful, proper and sufficient purpose'. The Police get to make a call on 'sufficient purpose'. A non discretionary section would likely be in regard to blood alcohol levels. Good luck taking your firearm into the BNZ, I will leave mine in the vehicle, parked in sight, in a lock box, bolt removed. Tell us how you get on at the bank testing 'legitimate purpose'

According to the Act.

3Act to bind the Crown
(2)
Nothing in this Act renders unlawful the carriage or possession of arms items, ammunition, or explosives—

(ii)
a member of the Police or an armourer employed or engaged by the Police; or
(iii)
a person employed by the Police to provide firearms training to members of the Police; or

The restrictions imposed by the act do not apply to Police, so what they do does not mean we can also do. If that was the case then why don't you go out and obtain an AR15? See how that goes for you!

According to the Regulations.

19Conditions relating to security precautions

(2)
On and after 1 July 1993 the reasonable steps required by subclause (1)(c) shall include—

(c)
ensuring that no firearm in the holder’s possession is left in a vehicle that is unattended.

Although it is not illegal to have a lock box it is still technically illegal to leave a firearm in a lockbox in an unattended vehicle for us. As has been pointed out to you many times also, the law is the law, the regulations are the law. Discretion would have to take into account actions to avoid breaking the law.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

According to the Act.



The restrictions imposed by the act do not apply to Police, so what they do does not mean we can also do. If that was the case then why don't you go out and obtain an AR15? See how that goes for you!

According to the Regulations.



Although it is not illegal to have a lock box it is still technically illegal to leave a firearm in a lockbox in an unattended vehicle for us. As has been pointed out to you many times also, the law is the law, the regulations are the law. Discretion would have to take into account actions to avoid breaking the law.

Rather than becoming pedantic about the law which everyone I expect agrees does not make allowance for unexpected situations ( rushed trip to A&E following a hunting accident), some of us are trying to present a practical solution that 1) keeps the firearms safe and 2) does not result in a breach of ' proper and sufficient purpose ' and 3) if the situation were examined by a judge, would be found that all reasonable and practical steps had been taken in the circumstances.
Is it the high protein part of your diet that has changed you from reasonable and mellow to aggressive Gadget ? Get some spuds and Kumera into ya !

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Rather than becoming pedantic about the law which everyone I expect agrees does not make allowance for unexpected situations ( rushed trip to A&E following a hunting accident), some of us are trying to present a practical solution that 1) keeps the firearms safe and 2) does not result in a breach of ' proper and sufficient purpose ' and 3) if the situation were examined by a judge, would be found that all reasonable and practical steps had been taken in the circumstances.
Is it the high protein part of your diet that has changed you from reasonable and mellow to aggressive Gadget ? Get some spuds and Kumera into ya !

The diet is moderate (normal) in protein, not high.

I'm just laying out the rules of the silly game. The best option is to get a more reasonable law.

The fudge room is in your 'proper and sufficient reason'. The stated laws are fixed. Again, any reasonable person would have to conclude that if it is stated that you cannot leave the firearm in an unattended vehicle that the intention of the law makers was that you must take it with you. Avoiding breaking a very specific law would have to be a proper and sufficient reason.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Rather than becoming pedantic about the law which everyone I expect agrees does not make allowance for unexpected situations ( rushed trip to A&E following a hunting accident), some of us are trying to present a practical solution that 1) keeps the firearms safe and 2) does not result in a breach of ' proper and sufficient purpose ' and 3) if the situation were examined by a judge, would be found that all reasonable and practical steps had been taken in the circumstances.
Is it the high protein part of your diet that has changed you from reasonable and mellow to aggressive Gadget ? Get some spuds and Kumera into ya !

in the event of an emergency, it would be reasonable to expect medical treatment to take precedence over the need to secure your firearm against theft from a vehicle,
bleeding to death so you don't leave your gun unattended wouldn't be reasonable so if police did try revoke your license in that sort of circumstance then your lawyer would have pretty solid ground to appeal.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

But it is illegal to do so. It is clearly stated in the statutes. Therefore taking with you to avoid breaking such a clearly laid out law must be a legitimate purpose.

And if it is entirely disguised as in a soft or hard carry bag/ case and if a bolt weapon, the bolt is removed and locked in your car, (Am I wrong in assuming that firearms parts do not have to be stored the same way as the firearm,? if so then in your pocket), then an arguable and reasonable defence exists if Plod is having a bad hair day and you end up in court.

Its not a crime to leave a firearm unattended in a vehicle, in that you shouldn't receive criminal charges and be at risk of a fine/prison sentence,
but it is a breach of the Arms Regulations 1992 section 19 which requires you to take reasonable steps to secure firearm against theft. One of the suggested reasonable steps is not leaving the firearm unattended in a vehicle.
This is a condition of your licence.
So get caught leaving a firearm unattended in your car and your license can be revoked.

If caught out through some sort of unusual circumstances, and your faced with the choice of "do I carry a firearm around in public or do I leave it in an unattended vehicle." For example your car breaks down and you have to walk to somewhere to find a phone to call for help. What do you do?

The irony is its less likely your firearm would be stolen if you're in control of it but,
Carrying it would put you at risk of breeches of the Arms Act 1983 with the risk of prosecution, fines, prison sentence and loss of licence.

The law creates a situation where to avoid alarming some gun fearing member of the public you are motivated to actually leave it in the vehicle as a situation with the lower personal risk but higher risk of it falling in to a criminals hands.