Fixing a safe to a concrete rib-raft floor

Afternoon all,

I'm looking at moving into a new place and the only suitable place to put the safe has a concrete rib-raft floor. I am pondering the best way to fix the safe to this and was hoping someone on here has either done this or at least knows more about doing it than me. I'm particularly conscious of not wrecking the moisture barrier and opening that whole kettle of worms. Even though it's only for A cat firearms, it's an E cat rated safe so it would be nice if the fixing met the required standard in case I one day decide to get my E. Does anyone have the E cat security standards that police put out?

Any info or experiences would be awesome, cheers

Glue the bastard down with urethane and sell it as prt of the chattels:thumbsup:

Yeah the plan is to fix it properly and it can stay there even if/ when I move - also a good excuse to get a new/ bigger safe eventally

Could you drill shallow holes, add pins and cast a concrete plinth for it ~75mm high?

I'm serious, urethane as they use to fix wi screens into cars is bloody amazing! You would have to cut it out

Yeah that could be an option. How deep are your guys anchors in the concrete/ is there a specified depth/ length of bolt?

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Originally Posted by Maca49

I'm serious, urethane as they use to fix wi screens into cars is bloody amazing! You would have to cut it out

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Lock smith told me to glue mine down with "No More Nails" providing You are never ever moving he said :)

Gluing a better than screwing!

This may be of some use to you.

https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...nts-pol67n.pdf

Scroll down to: STEEL BOXES AND STEEL CABINETS (Regulation 28 (1)(c))

Ok glue it not where dose it say you can't. If you can get a couple of wall fixing as well:) if your AO can move it then you need to do it again:wtfsmilie: I really doubt that he will get even a wiggle out of it if you have used some good stuff

You gluing if you use chemset bolts, re I think, it ain't a mechanical fixing?

No problem all you need do to still use 12mm bolts is

http://www.ramset.co.nz/Product/Deta...rop-in-Anchors

Drill a 16mm hole only 53mm deep in your ribraft and smash these in. Template the bottom of your safe with cardboard and drill where they are.

Pretty sure your ribraft is 85mm thick to the dpc.

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You got 85mm conc then the pod then DPC Pod will be 220mm or 300 mm. So go for it . Only thing to watch out for is under floor heating ? (do not attempt ) And plumbing ( waste pipes ) but all plumbing should be below 85 mm .

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Originally Posted by ubique

Yeah that could be an option. How deep are your guys anchors in the concrete/ is there a specified depth/ length of bolt?

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i tried using dyna bolts and AO said no can do, i had to chem set them in, my bolts are 4 X 12mm bolts 80-100mm in the concrete. only need 10mm bolt times two to comply.

dynabolts were OK for mine, 4 x 15mm diameter Internal (inside the safe).

Was some discussion as to whether that was acceptable. They were heading down the "chemset"" path until it was politely pointed out that if the door was already open maybe it would not matter the bolts were chemset (or not).
Signed off real quick after that little Gem

Mine just asked if it was bolted to the wall, I said yes he said thats fine

My E/B/C Safe is 4 12mm dyna's in the concrete and 4 coach screws into crosses in the wall.
It's not going anywhere in a hurry and my inspector didn't question it after seeing it, chem set bolts? Ask them where it says it's necessary in the legislation.

I would get a steel plate fabricated to fit under my safe, weld some bolts to it to line up with yr floor bolt holes in yr safe. Trial fit it make sure it's sweet. Get plate painted with 2 pot epoxy. Once epoxy paint has had a few days to go hard, give it a key with some 120 grit, wipe clean with acetone or similar. Clean concrete, make sure it has a key as well and Sikaflex the plate down. (Use sika multi primer and I think 291 glue)
Put yr safe down on yr plate, do ya bolts up tight and Pepin the tops of threads over.

I bullshit you not, you will need a 100 tonne hydraulic jack to get it off. We stick boats and buildings together with this shit.
You can then stick your wall bolts or coach screws in as well.

This way you will not mess with integrity of yr rib raft.

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Originally Posted by Maca49

Mine just asked if it was bolted to the wall, I said yes he said thats fine

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i think i know who that was, he has a realistic view on on bolting down a safe.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

My E/B/C Safe is 4 12mm dyna's in the concrete and 4 coach screws into crosses in the wall.
It's not going anywhere in a hurry and my inspector didn't question it after seeing it, chem set bolts? Ask them where it says it's necessary in the legislation.

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exactly, under the some AO i have had three different inspectors and only one of them insisted on chemset, dynabolts are far more reliable. if you fuck up the chemset they wont hold shit yet a 12mm dynabolt is good for a 500kg rated each. i on average have 11 fixing points so it isnt going anywhere without the key.

Dynabolts are fine. Chemset bolts can be used; however it's not a legal requirement.

Trubolts are even better but you'll need to template the base. and be straight with your hole drilling

My converted ATM weighs over a ton- door is solid 40mm... Not bolted down, not that anyone could ever tell.

Only prob is I'll have to move it in a year for the new house and that's gonna be a mission :O_O:

10mm self tapping concrete screws are awesome.
Easy to do and you can mount in a corner without risk of cracking the pad as there's expansion when installed

It is funny watching DIYers talk about fixing steel to concrete. Chemset lol

Yeah I'm pretty cognizant of the potential to stuff it up royally, with the danger of a less than optimal attachment being less of a concern than potentially permanently damaging the water tightness of the slab. The intent is to have it done by a pro but first I have to have an understanding of the options, which you guys have been awesome for, so that I am able to give them some idea of what I am actually after, beyond "just fix the safe to the floor." at the last house, that was all the direction I gave (relying on the chippy to know his job) and I ended with a weird mishmash of whatever concrete anchors and adhesives the chippy had left over and it was a big untidy mess-1 dynabolt, 1 drop in anchor, 2 big concrete bolts, a handful of wood screws and a whole lot of liquid nails etc

And three out of the four anchors went straight through the slab and DPC into aggregate

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

Ever seen chemset fail? It's rated life span before failure isn't that great - some of the older ones have been known to crumble at the 10-year mark at which time the thing being held down, falls out. I've seen several failures of older chemset products in industrial situations, both due to product failure and concrete spalling out and failing around the adhesive. There are several different types of chemset, three broad classes though - mechanical lock (expansion of the chemset product) chemical lock (glue in) and the combination type.

I've seen the mechanical lock type get whipped straight out of a machine-bored hole using a diamond tip core drill (hole was perfectly smooth so no surface ridges to provide a mechanical lock).

So yep, it's funny watching DIYers talking about fixing steel to concrete especially when pro's f it up on a regular basis...

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Sorry Mauser308, I should have been clearer. I was laughing at "chemset" being referred to as one simple product, where as it is one of 100s of chemical anchors. I was also laughing at the idea that some AOs would only accept it as a fixing solution, when they most likely have no idea when to specify such a product. I probably should have been more helpful and suggested using m12x50 screwbolts/Anka screws, to get good hold with minimum drilling depth on the rib raft, while also being easily removed with tools at a later date if needed. I was obviously a little bitter and twisted after supervising a 3rd floor cantilever suspended concrete floor pour in the rain so was less than helpful.

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Originally Posted by ubique

And three out of the four anchors went straight through the slab and DPC into aggregate

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I would suggest that your Rib Raft floor isn't what it seems if you hit aggregate? Like was said up further rib raft is around 85mm slab with ribs over 2-300mm thick polystyrene pods over damp proof over sub grade(good ground)

I would not worry about damaging the DPM unless it is a basement or below ground scenario with a proper tanking/membrane waterproofing solution. If it simply a house floor slab with a floor height around 225 above ground, the DPM probably had holes in it before you got near it, and while it does a job and is best to avoid damaging it, don't lose any sleep. If you are really worried, a squirt of silicon in each hole before a mechanical anchor, will sort it out. I am more helpful in the mornings sorry. Good luck with the safe!

Edit, I personally detest all chemical anchors and try to avoid using them at all cost. As said above, they are quite finicky to use correctly and I have had many a discussion with a structural engineer over the specification of "chemset" when a more simple mechanical solution exists.

Your anchors would need to be 300mm long to reach the dpm and compromise waterproofing on a ribraft. There are similar systems to ribraft that are known as waffle slabs. Some of them have plastic domes instead of the poly pods, cupolex springs to mind. They all have a minimum of 85mm slab thickness on top so even a 100mm anchor well be fine, protruding under the slab.
There are more and more options for fixing to concrete slabs. Dynabolts and trubolts being the same and there has been an influx of screw anchors being specified lately. They all do the same thing achieving the same result. The screw anchors are also universal from concrete and timber floors, for bracing elements and bottom plate fixing.

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