Thanks. I actually experienced lesser stoppages and feeding issues with them 20 & 30rd mags. Now I look forward to some pest control and 3gun shoots.Quote:
Originally Posted by res
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Thanks. I actually experienced lesser stoppages and feeding issues with them 20 & 30rd mags. Now I look forward to some pest control and 3gun shoots.Quote:
Originally Posted by res
Mine took a few months in total, as the AO forgot to sent the relevant paperwork away.Quote:
Originally Posted by turner nz
Got all sorted pretty quickly once he did though. May have been 3 weeks after the initial error/holdup.
Comes down to the workload of the vettor(s).
As you can imagine they have a rather increased workload so are under pressure to get through the applications.
The vettor that interviewed me and the Mrs finished up with us, as the last interview for the day, at 2200 and had been on the go since 0700 doing interviews.
There are 12 vettors in CHCH at the moment and they need more to cope with the applications.
Lots of FAL applicants are Asian and he said many can't speak any English making the process a lot longer/harder.
I put mine in 3 weeks ago, so far I've heard nothing
My problem is I have to move it by myself so weight is an issue and frankly I cant see me ever wanting 5 E cats....if I do well another safe, no biggee IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by turner nz
A mate just got one of those from Reloaders btw, seems its buggered, but Reloaders have said no probs...so a good example of after market care.
I store my ammo and bolts in another bigger safe, it has a 10mm thick door :D
I used this process - quite quick too - took about 2 weeks with no hassles. I'm also submitting 3 x POL67X forms to register three of my rifles as E-cat.
Steve
Hi SteveQuote:
Originally Posted by Tbirdsteve
When did you do yours for it to take just 2 weeks
In February this year via the Porirua office.
Steve
Question, if I'm still waiting for my e-endorsement to be processed after the 11 June, will that make me a 'criminal' since I wont still have my e-cat endorsement but still own mssa type firearm with its pistol grip.
No more than you are now-it's against the law now and the police are just using there discretion not to prosecute.
As they are the hold up you should be fine,but as I'm not a lawyer it could be worth emailing your arms officer to ask-mainly to have a record that you are doing everything in your power to comply
I'm off hunting on Sunday as well and looking at taking the AR for its first shot. (pistol grip and all)
Anyway will email the arms office but could be a little late now, but at least there will be an email sitting in his inbox.
Mine turned up in the mail yesterday
has (MSSA) in brackets does this just mean that i can only use those types of rifles??
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/...dgfsdgddfg.png
So they all like that???
Well that's what an E endorsement is for. It doesn't let you have or do anything else.
E: Also should probably blank out your deets man, FAL # DOB and full name probably aren't great to have floating around on the net
Quote:
Originally Posted by burtonator
It's still a normal licence as well if that's what your asking,just with the added endorsement of being allowed to own and use mssa's
Can just use the particular MSSA that the endorsement give syou 'permission' to possess and no other. A drafting error in the law provides no defence to the supply of an MSSA to any person who does not have an endorsement for that particualr and exact MSSA and a Permit to Procure specificaly that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by res
A range officer is even technically unable to even touch any MSSA except the ones for which they have the specific endorsement and permit to procure.
There is much delight in official circles at this 'error' and no plans to repair the drafting error.
Which is why we should bulk apply for P2Ps to facilitate the handling of MSSAs between you and your endorsed mates at the range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Man
Ask the range officers to get endorsed and do the same thing.
See how Wellington like hundreds of P2Ps coming in each week to process.
That is the only way the drafting error will ever be fixed.
I asked j green about this, no one has ever been charged under it,and unless they were looking for something to pin on you no one ever will. A very commonly ignored bit of law by every ro who is doing there job-and that's almost all of them.
Someone should do the multi p2p thing as it is the only way such things will get sorted,a Wellington AO said he would love to be involved a couple of years ago.
Unfortunately, some ranges will be enforcing the rule from 11 June onwards. I.e. won't allow you to let your mates shoot your E-Cat MSSA under your supervision.Quote:
Originally Posted by res
Mind you, those ranges are anti semis anyway, so not a far extension of that old fart attitude.
How can a RO do there job and follow that clearly un intended rule?
That can't in my opinion
So the law stands in the way of safe use of a legal item
The multi p2p game is a good way to deal with it-even if only the mssa owners and RO's play it-with the police complaints around funding I'm sure they will want to work something out fairly fast
I noticed that when the vettor came around to do my E-Cat inspection, he didn't touch any rifles, so wouldn't breach that silly rule about handling a MSSA without an endorsement or P2P.
I have my AO popping around on Sunday to do my Vetting.
So E-cat safe fully installed and bottle of Baileys for partner to keep her in a good mood for her interview :thumbsup:
That women sounds fuckn scary
The reasoning is quite convoluted but it is because there are three seperate sections in law which deal with supplying an MSSAQuote:
Originally Posted by dogmatix
CIV-2012-409-000866 [2013] NZHC 1813
JUDGMENT OF PANCKHURST J
[68] Faced with the present wording of s 22(2)(a) Ms Coleman conceded that the immediate supervision defence is available in relation to the use of a MSSA, at least in the context of a prosecution against the unlicensed person under s 20. Clearly that concession was appropriate.
[69] However, counsel drew attention to two other offence sections under which charges could be laid. Section 44(1) defines the offence of supplying a MSSA (or a pistol or a restricted weapon) to anyone other than a person who is authorised to receive it by virtue of a permit to import, or a permit to procure. Interestingly, s 44(3) provides a defence where the supply was by a pistol licence holder at a recognised pistol shooting club range and the supplier provided immediate supervision over the pistol while it is in the possession of the other person i.e. the same defence as was contained in the 2005 Bill in relation to possession of a pistol contrary to s 20 of the Act.
[70] Supply is a word of broad meaning. It is apt to cover relinquishing possession of a MSSA even temporarily for the purpose of firearm instruction by the supplier. Potentially, therefore, even in an immediate supervision context the supplier of a MSSA could be charged under s 44, albeit the person receiving instruction may well have a defence under s 22(2)(a).
[71] In addition, s 50(1) creates the offence of unlawful possession of a MSSA by a person not authorised or permitted to do so, for example because they do not hold an E endorsement and a permit to procure. Again, the same immediate supervision defence is available but only in relation to a pistol: see s 50(5). Hence, there is potential for someone placed in possession of a MSSA, but under immediate supervision, to be charged under this section, instead of under s 20 where an immediate supervision defence would be available.
[72] In short, ss 20(1) on the one hand, and 44(1) and 50(1) on the other are in conflict with reference to the availability of an immediate supervision defence in relation to the possession, and supply, of a MSSA. The existence of this conflict further supports the contention that s 22(2)(a) contains a drafting error which, regrettably, was not rectified as proposed in the 2005 Bill.
[73] Mr Lincoln sought a declaration confirming that, were he to supply a MSSA to another for firearm instruction and provide immediate supervision of that person, he would not commit an offence. The value of a declaration confirming that particular conduct is not criminal is well recognised:26
Where ... a party brings proceedings before the Courts relating to matters involving statutory construction ... because he wants to avoid violating the law and in order to ascertain and observe the law, the Court should surely be much more sympathetic towards granting declaratory relief if convenient.
In this instance, however, the reverse is the case. For the reasons given the applicant may be prosecuted under s 44(1) were he to supply a MSSA to someone for the purpose of safety instruction under his supervision.
[74] For these reasons, and in the exercise of my discretion, I decline to grant relief.
Remember that there is no staute of limitations in the Arms Act so charges could be laid at any time in the future if Police should decide to do so - present 'policy' not to prosecute can be changed at any time and Police personnel do change ...
Exactly why we should all apply for specific endorsements and P2Ps between endorsed license holders by the hundreds or even thousands each week.
To prevent us being in breach of the Act and to give Police HQ a mountain of paperwork to process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Man
Speaking to an arms officer, he bought up this subject where, his words, there are a "bunch of "pedantic" people in your sport".
People have gone to see him about people using someone elses E cat gun, said arms officer didnt want to know. he said you are at a range, its controlled, have some bloody fun. The law is a nonsense.
I wholeheartedly agree with him
Then openly let people shoot your E cat if you have one. Put it on youtube if you want. I wont be taking that risk thats for sure.
Why on earth would I want to do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Towely
I agree with him. That doesnt mean at all that I let anyone shoot any E cat firearms that I might or might not own. Do I have an E cat, that would be no ones business but mine.
And the police
I think that's a big part of the problem though. Mr AO says it's sweet, you and you mate go have some fun down at the range, PC plod clamps you in irons. "B-but the AO said it w-was ok!" you cry, as mr AO coldly turns his back on you, and PC plod drags you screaming to an organic sandal weaving facility for "re-education".
Yep thats a possibility too.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzumitH
So your AO is choosing not to enforce quite serious regulatory infingements?
44 Selling or supplying pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon to person who does not hold permit to import or to procure
(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to a fine not exceeding $4,000 or to both who sells or supplies a pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon to any person other than a person who is authorised—
(a) by a permit issued for the purposes of section 16(1) to bring or cause to be brought or sent into New Zealand that pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon; or
(b) by a permit issued under section 35 to procure that pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon.
50 Unlawful possession of pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon
(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to a fine not exceeding $4,000 or to both who—
(a) is in possession of a pistol and is not a person authorised or permitted, expressly or by implication, by or pursuant to this Act, to be in possession of that pistol; or
(b) is in possession of a restricted weapon and is not a person authorised or permitted, expressly or by implication, by or pursuant to this Act, to be in possession of that restricted weapon:
(c) is in possession of a military style semi-automatic firearm and is not a person authorised or permitted, expressly or by implication, by or pursuant to this Act, to be in possession of that military style semi-automatic firearm.
I am guessing National Police HQ would be very interested in that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Man
I didnt say which AO it was.
It seems there are alot of those Pedantic people here he was refering to.
I think it was best I said nothing at all.
You let someone use a Ruger 10/22 with a 10 round mag, no problem
You let someone use a ruger 10/22 thats registered all hell breaks lose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Man
I didnt say which AO it was.
It seems there are alot of those Pedantic people here he was refering to.
I think it was best I said nothing at all.
You let someone use a Ruger 10/22 with a 10 round mag, no problem
You let someone use a ruger 10/22 thats registered all hell breaks lose.
No one said anyone broke the law
In the arms code it states
Crossing fences
If there is a gate – use it! Never climb a fence while
carrying a firearm. Carrying loaded firearms through
fences and over obstacles can result in injury and death.
• If there are two or more people, one should climb over
the fence without a firearm. Then, pass the unloaded
firearms across with the actions open, and pointed in a
safe direction.
Now how do you follow the arms code with a MSSA ??
A hunting buddy and myself were chasing Wallabies in Fallow Deer country. One up the spout/safety on/muzzle in safe direction (carrying patrol ready)/Snot hook OFF bang switch ... when we came to a fence with no gate for miles (or kilometres for that matter!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevs
Removed magazines/cleared actions and checked empty chamber sliding MSSAs under fence with actions open being careful not to touch each others endorsed firearms !! Climbed through fence and bent down to retrieve cleared firearm ... and a Fallow Deer jumped up out of the Tussock less than 50 yards away ... Just stood there looking at each other as our safety concious behaviour left us with firearms not yet reloaded. We did laugh about it later and did not do anything different at the next fence - except the one not going through the fence remained cocked and locked till the other was through and loaded before clearing and following.
So I guess that is how it is done but if by yourself just clear and miss the shot!
Well, less than a week to go now, took the last of mine in this morning, my little .22 - it may be old with nothing but memories of blueing left but it still felt good to chuck the metal bar in the bin that's been keeping the grip and stock conjioined all along...
Hmmm... I didn't put my Vepr in to be endorsed, not sure if I can be bothered. Near impossible to get mags out of the USA bigger than 5 rounds anyway.
If your talking about a 12g vepr I have one ore two 7/8 round factory mags that I got sent by mistake when ordering saiga12 mags. Never sent them back as I thought I would try to make a mag well for the saiga and never did. If you bolt off the magwell on the v12 you can use s12 mags-including drums and dumping 20 rounds of buckshot into a rolling bucket is something you have to try if you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmatix
He's talking about the x39mm Vepr.
Speaking of which, could you bring it to the next shoot? I'm keen to check it out.