A good insight into recent (20 yr) history of armed policing (AOS) in NZ

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/secret...SEPNTEYQNVO2Y/

While I dont envy the job or task front line officers face, there are some glaring gaps & risks .... and cover ups.
For once, some half decent investigative journalism. Those clammering for full time arming of cops in NZ should read & digest.

After revelations that New Zealand police kill at 11 times the rate of officers in England and Wales, RNZ has obtained a secret IPCA report that sheds light on the way the Armed Offenders Squad operates and the questionable state of police firearms training.

Have just read it, not a nice read eh! And hasn't the firearms community been saying for years that the police need more training. And still Coster continues to cover arse.

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Originally Posted by chainsaw

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/secret...SEPNTEYQNVO2Y/

While I dont envy the job or task front line officers face, there are some glaring gaps & risks .... and cover ups.
For once, some half decent investigative journalism. Those clammering for full time arming of cops in NZ should read & digest.

After revelations that New Zealand police kill at 11 times the rate of officers in England and Wales, RNZ has obtained a secret IPCA report that sheds light on the way the Armed Offenders Squad operates and the questionable state of police firearms training.

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I noticed there’s no comparison with Mexico and other countries with similar numbers of police shootings…

And I wonder if there’s a link between the NZ shootings and the appalling NZ suicide rate?

How many of the shootings have been justified or unjustified? That’s the real question. If the shooting is justified then there shouldn’t be an issue?

I agree though that the more training anyone had with firearms the better.

I should add that the accidental shootings should never have happened. Not good at all.

Coster is right though ‘shooting to wound is just for the movies’
When your arse is puckering and somebody who wishes you harm is bearing down from less than 15 yards and waving the weapon he’s intending on using on you there’s not much opportunity to ‘shoot to wound’
Having said that: the Woodlands guy near Invercargill seems to be the recipient of a wounding shot, his lucky day or??

I do not envy the cops at all ------ But accidently shot someone in the back while he was on the ground in handcuffs. He survived because the cop had used the wrong ammo. Missed a person from 7 to 9 meters away killing a bystander and wounding another. Plus other things all covered up. This report is fucking disturbing and should be headline news. Guess it will all be licenced firearm owners fault in the end.

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Originally Posted by chindit

I do not envy the cops at all ------ But accidently shot someone in the back while he was on the ground in handcuffs. He survived because the cop had used the wrong ammo. Missed a person from 7 to 9 meters away killing a bystander and wounding another. Plus other things all covered up. This report is fucking disturbing and should be headline news. Guess it will all be licenced firearm owners fault in the end.

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It all comes down to training I guess?
Training constrained by a tight-arse budget no doubt.

@Sako851 the IPCA said that all shootings were justified (at the instance the officer shot them) but police tactics may have “caused” the shooting by escalating the confrontation.
One guy was bail checked numerous times a day, often during the night and early hours of the morning for about a month. He was always there and was not breaching bail conditions. Eventually the guy cracked and police shot him while he was carrying a slasher.

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Originally Posted by stug

@Sako851 the IPCA said that all shootings were justified (at the instance the officer shot them) but police tactics may have “caused” the shooting by escalating the confrontation.
One guy was bail checked numerous times a day, often during the night and early hours of the morning for about a month. He was always there and was not breaching bail conditions. Eventually the guy cracked and police shot him while he was carrying a slasher.

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This

A number of points were interesting-

I agree that there is a need for armed officers (AOS ) on occasion, and I agree that the training is woefully inadequate. Accuracy and performance under pressure is mostly muscle memory and practise. And one week a year is not enough. Mind you, every other aspect of the funding is inadequate as well so fair is fair....Licensing admin is woefully under funded too- the only part that is not underfunded seems to be traffic policing

In those situations, marksmanship should not require concentration...there are other issues / dangers that require their immediate concentration in those situations. But shooting the perpetrator must be a last resort and not the first response...

Interesting comments about the hollow points, and on the face of it, it makes some sense when you consider an FMJ going through and hitting behind the target.....

And shooting to wound is not really possible. The reason they go for "the big bit" is if they get to a point where they have to shoot someone to incapacitate them, then a limb is a dodgy target....And if you hit a thigh or shoulder and get the artery- they will be dead anyway but will now have a chance to return fire before passing...result is dead cop as well...or bystander.

I don't like the lantern. He always come across piss weak, but smug all at the same time.

Like most ( read ALL) of their training, Firearms is rushed through. Once upon a time Police college was something like 33 weeks. Now its less than half that.

Once again its the costs of it which limit the amount of training you get in a year.

Woefully inadequate.

The amount of live practice they get each year is pathetic. Clearly the budget is insulting.

There was a callout in Auckland a couple of years back where the total ammo supply for the M4s was two magazines worth in the whole station. What are the hierarchy thinking ( or not thinking)?

Do we know why he was on bail conditions or is that left out of the report?

If your on bail to not be out during nighttime hours, the police will check to make sure your not beaching. That’s an important part of being on bail.

I think that we would be better off to go to the american system where you are in jail till your case comes up unless someone can pay to bail you out. If you play up whilst your on bail then they forfeit that money.

There has been some horrendous crimes committed by people on bail. Most serious offences like murder, rape, agg robbery etc are committed by people on bail for other offences.

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Originally Posted by timattalon

A number of points were interesting-

I agree that there is a need for armed officers (AOS ) on occasion, and I agree that the training is woefully inadequate. Accuracy and performance under pressure is mostly muscle memory and practise. And one week a year is not enough. Mind you, every other aspect of the funding is inadequate as well so fair is fair....Licensing admin is woefully under funded too- the only part that is not underfunded seems to be traffic policing

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What's wrong with the amount of firearms training police have? They're highly trained individuals.


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Even the taliban were displaying better trigger control than that

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Originally Posted by imaca

Even the taliban were displaying better trigger control than that

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I reckon they had more time using the gear. Trigger time as it where.

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Originally Posted by stug

@Sako851 the IPCA said that all shootings were justified (at the instance the officer shot them) but police tactics may have “caused” the shooting by escalating the confrontation.
One guy was bail checked numerous times a day, often during the night and early hours of the morning for about a month. He was always there and was not breaching bail conditions. Eventually the guy cracked and police shot him while he was carrying a slasher.

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A friend ended up on 23 hrs and 59 minutes curfew a few years ago after he shagged a cops Mrs and got charged with something he didn't do.
Anyway he cracked with the police visits every morning at 5 am. Funny bastard didnt resort to violence but 'stropped himself up' and answered the door each morning naked with a hard on and " Is there something I can do for you officer"?

Haha that’s a better way of doing it Moa

Reminds me of the old joke ..... "if i called you a prick, would you hold it against me ?"

Cahill claims that Police officers receive a weeks firearms training whilst on Basic training, and then 7 and a half days firearms training a year, but until recently it was only 4 days.

But TWO different Police Officers I had good discussions with down at the Wellington protest said they received only 2 x half days on the range annually. And they were both manning rural stations, so were more likely to come into contact with firearms (other than South Auckland!).

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

What's wrong with the amount of firearms training police have? They're highly trained individuals.


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Looks like her finger is underneath the trigger guard, too far back to be inside the trigger guard as the trigger would be in the way, likely her middle finger.

There is so much wrong with that article that it's hard to know where to start. Pretty pathetic journalism.

not something that should really happen aye but it does and is appalling and there lack of training goes so far that if the cops train on your range your insurance premium goes up as they are the ones who cause the most safety accidents. they need to learn to train train train and then train some more otherwise they aint gonna get better

And this am, 5 am to be precise and for 30 mins. We had motorcycle revving their asses off around Bethlehem in Tauranga, every morning there an arsehole that go thru Bethlehem and down the motorway to the Mount. When walking, I’ve actually seen a cop waiting and watching him go thru, I told him this happens every day. He closed the car door and drove away? Who’s in control, more and more I’m thinking the gangs.