Gun Safe Rules - Advice

Hi Everyone,

I'm after some advice if possible... I bought my first gun safe which is big enough to hold two standard sized rifles. It doesn't have a separate lockable compartment for ammo (I bought it prior to Christmas so funds were limited). I have various questions that I am assuming the person coming to vet me and the safe, hopefully next month, will want to check.

Does the safe have to be within the house, i.e. within the walls of the main house? The reason I ask is that I have a 'sort of' basement which has a lockable door. I figured that would be a good place but not sure whether it need to be in the actual house?

Does it need to be attached to a stud/joist? If so has anyone got any advice on the best way to do this?

As the safe is just one compartment, does anyone have any advice on how best to store everything? I figured I would inform the person vetting me that my plan is to store the firearm and ammo in the safe and the bolt elsewhere. Does that work?

I'd like to align as closely to the rules as the person vetting me will see them (although I imagine they will all have different opinions on various things) so I can get my FAL as soon as.

Any advice/suggestions appreciated as always!

Cheers

Matt

my safe (A cat) has 4 "tech screws" with large washers going down into a wooden floor, another 2 screws into the wall behind it. its damn solid!!
its also inside a bedroom cupboard so no one can see it. inside a well alarmed house with a decent dog in the back.
but the best security you can have is privacy, dont go ranting on on social media etc of what you own.

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Originally Posted by gonetropo

my safe (A cat) has 4 "tech screws" with large washers going down into a wooden floor, another 2 screws into the wall behind it. its damn solid!!
its also inside a bedroom cupboard so no one can see it. inside a well alarmed house with a decent dog in the back.
but the best security you can have is privacy, dont go ranting on on social media etc of what you own.

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+1 on technology screws in the floor and find a stud somewhere in the bedroom closet to back it onto. Metal toolbox with a paddock on it screwed to the floor somewhere else works for ammo and bolt

Are you guys talking about tech screws or coach screws?

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Originally Posted by MSL

Are you guys talking about tech screws or coach screws?

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I'm meaning the ones that are driven in with the drill and a driver rather than coach bolts with nuts on the inside of the safe

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Originally Posted by MSL

Are you guys talking about tech screws or coach screws?

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When I Google Coach Screws they seem to be readily available - but Technology Screws - nothing comes up... Not sure if they may be known as something different?

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Originally Posted by Matt-j

When I Google Coach Screws they seem to be readily available - but Technology Screws - nothing comes up... Not sure if they may be known as something different?

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Can't tell if you're taking the piss or not. They're called Tek screws. http://www.allpointsfasteners.com/whataretekscrews.html

Gonetropo called them "tech" screws, and 223nut repeated that, and I imagine autocorrect turned that into "technology" screws.

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Originally Posted by stretch

Can't tell if you're taking the piss or not. They're called Tek screws. http://www.allpointsfasteners.com/whataretekscrews.html

Gonetropo called them "tech" screws, and 223nut repeated that, and I imagine autocorrect turned that into "technology" screws.

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Thanks stretch - no, not taking the piss - 223nut referred to them as technology screws, which I figured was the correct name based on tech being short for technology. But when you spell it 'tek' that changes the results in Google. Sorry, I don't know much about hardware screws. To me a screw is generally someone who works in a prison, or a female of the species who allowed access to the contents of her knickers... [emoji16]

Haha auto correct never fails to deliver - Technology screws the future is here. self fastening screws have landed, order yours today!!

You can install your gun cabinet in the basement or locked garage. Best inside if possible though for obvious reasons not to mention garages can get quite damp. If you do install it in a garage try and keep it out of sight from any windows or cover it up. Not a legal requirement at all but just plain common sense.

Try 10mm coach bolts 67mm or longer with good size washers behind them into a stud or nog. A couple into the floor doesn't hurt either. Substitute Dyna bolts for a concrete floor, these are just suggestions. It's part of my job to inspect firearm security and I've seen some very ingenious and clever ideas.

You must store your ammunition separately from your firearms unless the firearms are made inoperable. You can legally store the bolts in your rifle, however storing them elsewhere makes sense if it's practical to do so.

Apart from satisfying any legal requirement try and make it as difficult as possible for anyone to gain unlawful access to your firearms. That's what it all comes down to.

My advice is to get a bigger gun safe now, as a 2 gun safe will soon run out of room.

Yep auto correct got me!

If you look at it like there are no rules for mounting...(the arms officer that did mine just grabbed it and shook it, and said yes that's sturdy) yet you want it the best you can do. As in not obvious, and everything you can do to keep a thief out. Nothing's full proof, but Screw, bolt, weld, round off screw/bolts and anything else you can think of. And plenty of those screws etc.And I'm sure it will be fine.
Bolts and ammo just have to be somewhere else, separate. A small Bunnings safe may suit you, and mount it in the same manner.
As said sheds can be damp, or somewhere by power so you can use a small wordrobe heater or the likes to keep moisture at bay.
Maybe keep tools in the shed that can be used to break into the safe out of reach.
You won't be able to stop thieves but maybe slow them.

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Originally Posted by bully

If you look at it like there are no rules for mounting...(the arms officer that did mine just grabbed it and shook it, and said yes that's sturdy) yet you want it the best you can do. As in not obvious, and everything you can do to keep a thief out. Nothing's full proof, but Screw, bolt, weld, round off screw/bolts and anything else you can think of. And plenty of those screws etc.And I'm sure it will be fine.
Bolts and ammo just have to be somewhere else, separate. A small Bunnings safe may suit you, and mount it in the same manner.
As said sheds can be damp, or somewhere by power so you can use a small wordrobe heater or the likes to keep moisture at bay.
Maybe keep tools in the shed that can be used to break into the safe out of reach.
You won't be able to stop thieves but maybe slow them.

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Good advice, thanks Bully


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Originally Posted by 10-Ring

You can install your gun cabinet in the basement or locked garage. Best inside if possible though for obvious reasons not to mention garages can get quite damp. If you do install it in a garage try and keep it out of sight from any windows or cover it up. Not a legal requirement at all but just plain common sense.

Try 10mm coach bolts 67mm or longer with good size washers behind them into a stud or nog. A couple into the floor doesn't hurt either. Substitute Dyna bolts for a concrete floor, these are just suggestions. It's part of my job to inspect firearm security and I've seen some very ingenious and clever ideas.

You must store your ammunition separately from your firearms unless the firearms are made inoperable. You can legally store the bolts in your rifle, however storing them elsewhere makes sense if it's practical to do so.

Apart from satisfying any legal requirement try and make it as difficult as possible for anyone to gain unlawful access to your firearms. That's what it all comes down to.

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Thanks 10-Ring, good advice


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Originally Posted by bully

If you look at it like there are no rules for mounting...(the arms officer that did mine just grabbed it and shook it, and said yes that's sturdy) yet you want it the best you can do. As in not obvious, and everything you can do to keep a thief out. Nothing's full proof, but Screw, bolt, weld, round off screw/bolts and anything else you can think of. And plenty of those screws etc.And I'm sure it will be fine.
Bolts and ammo just have to be somewhere else, separate. A small Bunnings safe may suit you, and mount it in the same manner.
As said sheds can be damp, or somewhere by power so you can use a small wordrobe heater or the likes to keep moisture at bay.
Maybe keep tools in the shed that can be used to break into the safe out of reach.
You won't be able to stop thieves but maybe slow them.

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No legal requirement to remove bolts from rifles, nor is there for ammo to be locked up. You can put it in the back of a closet.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

No legal requirement to remove bolts from rifles, nor is there for ammo to be locked up. You can put it in the back of a closet.

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Thanks for your input Jexla. Not yet having my FAL though, I'm unsure whether if I take the minimalistic approach with regards to securing ammo and/or the bolt separately, the person vetting me will take a dim view. I want to be safe and secure, and I have two young kids in the house, and I may be over thinking all this, but I just want things to go as smoothly as possible...


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Originally Posted by Matt-j

Thanks for your input Jexla. Not yet having my FAL though, I'm unsure whether if I take the minimalistic approach with regards to securing ammo and/or the bolt separately, the person vetting me will take a dim view. I want to be safe and secure, and I have two young kids in the house, and I may be over thinking all this, but I just want things to go as smoothly as possible...


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As much security as possible is encouraged!

I recommend concrete screw bolts over dyna type bolts, have a higher KN rating and are easier to install and remove if moving the safe.

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Originally Posted by Savage1

I recommend concrete screw bolts over dyna type bolts, have a higher KN rating and are easier to install and remove if moving the safe.

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Or ChemSet but they are permanent and need cutting off flush if moving to tidy up.

As you have gathered, security requirements vary, they shouldn't though. It seems at the whim of different AOs, when really the Police make sh*t up as to 'their policy'.

As Jexla said, over engineer your security for piece of mind. Don't make it easy for the theiving bastards to steal your property.
My over engineered 10mm 40kg plus underfloor plate was a right prick to install at my old house in the crawl space. The bolts were welded in, so I had to jack it up straight up into the safe. Took me ages and could barely walk after. But it wasn't going to shift. The vettor didn't even bother to check it when I described it and showed photos of the install.

When we moved, it was just as a pain to remove. Whitetail spider bites and all (fell down my shirt).

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

As you have gathered, security requirements vary, they shouldn't though. It seems at the whim of different AOs, when really the Police make sh*t up as to 'their policy'.

As Jexla said, over engineer your security for piece of mind. Don't make it easy for the theiving bastards to steal your property.
My over engineered 10mm 40kg plus underfloor plate was a right prick to install at my old house in the crawl space. The bolts were welded in, so I had to jack it up straight up into the safe. Took me ages and could barely walk after. But it wasn't going to shift. The vettor didn't even bother to check it when I described it and showed photos of the install.

When we moved, it was just as a pain to remove. Whitetail spider bites and all (fell down my shirt).

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Thanks for the advice dogmatix- I think I'll try and avoid the spiderbites though...!


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

As you have gathered, security requirements vary, they shouldn't though. It seems at the whim of different AOs, when really the Police make sh*t up as to 'their policy'.

As Jexla said, over engineer your security for piece of mind. Don't make it easy for the theiving bastards to steal your property.
My over engineered 10mm 40kg plus underfloor plate was a right prick to install at my old house in the crawl space. The bolts were welded in, so I had to jack it up straight up into the safe. Took me ages and could barely walk after. But it wasn't going to shift. The vettor didn't even bother to check it when I described it and showed photos of the install.

When we moved, it was just as a pain to remove. Whitetail spider bites and all (fell down my shirt).

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We did something similar at a mates place, but him being smart and lazy made him think about how to, a bit too much first. He basicly did exactly as you have but he added a threaded hole (M10) in the centre as well. He then got a length of M10 rod and dropped it in through the locker and wound the base plate up with a drill on the end of the thread passing though the plate. Once everything was in place and fitted he removed the rod. One thing he did do differently was to make each of the bolts from underneath a slightly different length. That way as it came up he could line them up one at a time rather than all four at once.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nkv8ujsc2...3+52+56+pm.mov

safe does need to be secured

what im trying to figure out is if i can put it in a unlock able garage

If you get into reloading there is a requirement that powder isn't stored in a dwelling.
I think that is in the hazardous substances legislation, and not more that 15 kg in total.
Legally an attached garage counts as being part of the dwelling as does a basement.
I have about 13 kg unused powder and more than 2 kg loaded in cases which doesn't count.

I now have 2 gun safes, one for rifles, one for powder and ammunition in a garage not attached to our house.
Bolts are stored separately in a lock box away from ammo and rifles.

When my son was vetted for his FAL the vetter asked why ammunition was being stored on top of the gunsafes. :(
Had to explain that it wasn't what she saw was ~2000 223 projectiles and ~4000 308 projectiles. Completely harmless in that form.