Here's a question that is not so easy to answer.

Well it had the vetting officer baffled yesterday anyway. As a bit of background, my daughter and I both got vetted yesterday for our B and E endorsement and while the vetting officer was here I posed the following question.
I have an A category AR15 and I am aware that if I have an E category MSSA then that rifle is registered to me and only I can use it and my daughter can't. But when we get our E, what if I have a 30 round magazine and attach it to my AR15 (thereby making it E cat), use it and then take the 30 round magazine off rendering it A cat again, and hand it to my daughter who attaches her own 30 round magazine making it E cat (for the duration that the magazine is on it).

So what is the deal with that? Would it be legal for me to give my A cat AR15 to my daughter ( which it should be)?

Someone on here must know but as I said, the vetting officer didn't know the answer.

Not that it is the same situation. When I did the Mountain safety course the instructor told us that he and his wife were "E" endorsed and had managed to get the same E cat gun registered to both of them, the point of his story was the Police didnt want to do it, possibly didnt know how to or it just didnt work well with their system.

Your AR15 is currently A cat and remains so when you get your E endorsement. While either of you (assuming you both have E cats) may possess multiple 30 shot mags and freely swap them with each other, you can't use them in your A cat AR15. Despite the E endorsement, you would need to get your AR15 put on ticket as an MSSA to use the bigger mags, then with the small mags you could still use it as an A (why?) but it could not be used by anyone without an E endorsement, and even then only when you are present. Your daughter would need a loan permit to use anyone elses MSSA, including yours. The MSSA's are specifically connected to the owner's endorsement. Ridiculous, but that is the situation. Most cops would look at your licence and go away happy without doing a specific serial number check.

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Originally Posted by Rushy

Well it had the vetting officer baffled yesterday anyway. As a bit of background, my daughter and I both got vetted yesterday for our B and E endorsement and while the vetting officer was here I posed the following question.
I have an A category AR15 and I am aware that if I have an E category MSSA then that rifle is registered to me and only I can use it and my daughter can't. But when we get our E, what if I have a 30 round magazine and attach it to my AR15 (thereby making it E cat), use it and then take the 30 round magazine off rendering it A cat again, and hand it to my daughter who attaches her own 30 round magazine making it E cat (for the duration that the magazine is on it).

So what is the deal with that? Would it be legal for me to give my A cat AR15 to my daughter ( which it should be)?

Someone on here must know but as I said, the vetting officer didn't know the answer.

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Would be fine as long as you are BOTH the registered owners of said "E" rifle not uncommon situation .

Total bollocks really as long as you both have your E endorsements it should not matter but..................................... we wont go there eh.

Thanks gundoc. That is the sort of answer I was after.

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Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

Not that it is the same situation. When I did the Mountain safety course the instructor told us that he and his wife were "E" endorsed and had managed to get the same E cat gun registered to both of them, the point of his story was the Police didnt want to do it, possibly didnt know how to or it just didnt work well with their system.

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My old AO had a Large number of my E cat firarms against both mine and others licances as a practical way to deal with the amount of each year I spend out of NZ, he retired and his replacment (withount any consotation with me) made the only on my freinds licance where they are stored. A right pain in the arse and its resulted in a endless pile of paperwork for both her and I every time Im back in the country-but she swears that the way the old AO was doing it was not aceptable.

Rushy, your question is a bit like the Emperor's new clothes - it shows up just how fucking idiotic the system we currently work under is

Of course, if you have your C-cat endorsement ( which is just the extra $200 same as E and B and can be applied for all at one time and cost) then you can buy a pistol at auction on your C, take it home without a pinky, apply to get one from your pistol club armourer at your leisure and convenience then get it put onto your B and fire it once it is on your B-cat

Hey I don't make the rules

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Originally Posted by res

My old AO had a Large number of my E cat firarms against both mine and others licances as a practical way to deal with the amount of each year I spend out of NZ, he retired and his replacment (withount any consotation with me) made the only on my freinds licance where they are stored. A right pain in the arse and its resulted in a endless pile of paperwork for both her and I every time Im back in the country-but she swears that the way the old AO was doing it was not aceptable.

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...Lovely isn't she!

:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by gundoc

but it could not be used by anyone without an E endorsement, and even then only when you are present.

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To further prove the point of how retarded our law is.....

This is also incorrect. No one, BUT the registered owner/s may shoot an E endorsed firearm.

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Originally Posted by Rushy

Well it had the vetting officer baffled yesterday anyway. As a bit of background, my daughter and I both got vetted yesterday for our B and E endorsement and while the vetting officer was here I posed the following question.
I have an A category AR15 and I am aware that if I have an E category MSSA then that rifle is registered to me and only I can use it and my daughter can't. But when we get our E, what if I have a 30 round magazine and attach it to my AR15 (thereby making it E cat), use it and then take the 30 round magazine off rendering it A cat again, and hand it to my daughter who attaches her own 30 round magazine making it E cat (for the duration that the magazine is on it).

So what is the deal with that? Would it be legal for me to give my A cat AR15 to my daughter ( which it should be)?

Someone on here must know but as I said, the vetting officer didn't know the answer.

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Also,


The vetting officers generally don't know shit about firearms laws, just how to ask the questions written in the book.
Not their fault, nor is it really their job to know much more, they're not cops or AO's.

There wouldn't be too many people including lawyers that know a lot (just about everything) about firearms law.

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Originally Posted by 10-Ring

There wouldn't be too many people including lawyers that know a lot (just about everything) about firearms law.

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Correct, what's your point?

so following same illlogic (is that even a word???) a single shot break open like a TC that has two barrels and a hand/pistol grip...one set of barrels make total overall length more than 762mm and the other barrel doesnt...... so registered as a pistol/handgun your saying it cant be used by anyone else even with the longer barrel....or indeed a but stock fitted??????

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Originally Posted by Jexla

Correct, what's your point?

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Read above.

What's the point of your question?

This is the relevant part of an email I got from my local AO ref. this question. Copy and pasted for your perusal.


When you both have an E endorsement, you are able to jointly own that MSSA. He must have the security too though.

The report that comes with the safe is sufficient.

Regards

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I think you will find your statement incorrect also.
No one except the registered owner may handle the E endorsed firearm let alone fire it.

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So why can I go into most gun shops, auctions etc. and pick up E cat guns and play with them?

Did nobody tell the dealers? Or do they know that no bastard is going to buy something without looking at it?

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I think you will find your statement incorrect also.
No one except the registered owner may handle the E endorsed firearm let alone fire it.

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So why can I, and everybody else, go into most gun shops, auctions, gun shows etc. and pick up E cat guns and play with them?

Did nobody tell the dealers? Or do they know that no bastard is going to buy something without looking at it?

Settle down son,you're sstuttering.:)

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Originally Posted by systolic

So why can I, and everybody else, go into most gun shops, auctions, gun shows etc. and pick up E cat guns and play with them?

Did nobody tell the dealers? Or do they know that no bastard is going to buy something without looking at it?

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@systolic

With reference to the Arms Acts and Regulations and specifically The Arms Code section 5d offences
5d) Offences with firearms
Firearms owners and users have certain obligations under the Arms Act. Failure to follow these requirements can lead to prosecution. Most are common sense but if you are in any doubt, or require more information, you should contact the Police or a solicitor, or obtain a copy of the Arms Act and Regulations (New Zealand Legislation (link is external)).

Some of the offences are listed below in general terms:

Being in possession of a pistol, restricted weapon or MSSA without the required endorsement.

Supplying a pistol, restricted weapon or MSSA to someone who does not have a permit to procure.

With regard to these two offences a member of the public with an E Endorsement may have a defence if in physical possession of an MSSA while in the shop, gun store, dealers premises, gun show etc,
however I would think the dealer/shop Employee/Registered Owner may struggle to defend themselves against a supply offence charge if they handed over an MSSA for your inspection without first sighting and signing a permit to procure as you now have physical possession, and unless you had a permit to procure said specific MSSA then an offence of supply may have been committed when the MSSA was handed over for your inspection. :(

This I believe gave rise to the saying "The Law is an Ass" :)

Cheers
Pete

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Originally Posted by P38

@systolic

With reference to the Arms Acts and Regulations and specifically The Arms Code section 5d offences
5d) Offences with firearms
Firearms owners and users have certain obligations under the Arms Act. Failure to follow these requirements can lead to prosecution. Most are common sense but if you are in any doubt, or require more information, you should contact the Police or a solicitor, or obtain a copy of the Arms Act and Regulations (New Zealand Legislation (link is external)).

Some of the offences are listed below in general terms:

Being in possession of a pistol, restricted weapon or MSSA without the required endorsement.

Supplying a pistol, restricted weapon or MSSA to someone who does not have a permit to procure.

With regard to these two offences a member of the public with an E Endorsement may have a defence if in physical possession of an MSSA while in the shop, gun store, dealers premises, gun show etc,
however I would think the dealer/shop Employee/Registered Owner may struggle to defend themselves against a supply offence charge if they handed over an MSSA for your inspection without first sighting and signing a permit to procure as you now have physical possession, and unless you had a permit to procure said specific MSSA then an offence of supply may have been committed when the MSSA was handed over for your inspection. :(

This I believe gave rise to the saying "The Law is an Ass" :)

Cheers
Pete

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So if I read this right, assuming I have an e endorsement (which I dont) and say that I am looking at buying a rifle, this means I need to get a permit to procure for each of the rifles I want to handle and check to see if they are what I want? You are not wrong, the law is an ass in that case.

If the cops can't even be arsed turning up to burglaries because they're so short staffed, why would they give a fuck about people window shopping for guns.

Unless I hear credible reports of people getting arrested for handling assault rifles in gun shops without the permits or endorsements, I'm going to keep doing it.

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Originally Posted by systolic

If the cops can't even be arsed turning up to burglaries because they're so short staffed, why would they give a fuck about people window shopping for guns.

Unless I hear credible reports of people getting arrested for handling assault rifles in gun shops without the permits or endorsements, I'm going to keep doing it.

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20 months for knowingly buying stolen handguns with no licence..... clearly the govt doesn't really give a shit about illegal guns it is the legal ones they want to shut down.

I think the cops who got a gun pointed at them last night in Christchurch give a shit.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I think you will find your statement incorrect also.
No one except the registered owner may handle the E endorsed firearm let alone fire it.

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Whilst you may very well be right, that doesn't make my comment incorrect like you've suggested, does it? ;)

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

My apologies you are correct. But the regulations do state that the person who's endorsed to that firearm is the only one able to handle the firearm.

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Agreed, which even further proves my point of how retarded our law is ;)