Thread: Hunter convicted

Given his attitude and nature of his offending, there's a 99% likelyhood he will re-offend. There was a (US I think) Programme where they confronted this 'Kind' of offender, with (now) adult-victims, of the same or similar behaviour. The perpetrators admitted that it was the Only thing that had ever had any rehabilitative effect on them. These interviews were all in Prison, and more than one admitted there was no hope for rehabilitation. Most, but not all, had been victims of the same crimes as children. Before they were confronted by the Adult-Victims, none of them appeared able to empathise in any way with their victims.. It was akin-to a light being switched-on, which was scary because the reaction was real, not put-on. The victims in this experimental approach, reported empowerment and closure, but the Organisers had struggled to get participants.

Originally Posted by sneeze

Yes. It is just the imbalance that seems wrong here, I don't have enough info to have an opinion on the other decisions.
My other comments/questions are around unintended consequences. I get the possible benefits of avoiding conviction for the accused but at what cost? What do you know of victims outcomes when they feel completely let down by the system?
Are you so sure the odd up and coming Rugby player wont look at George Moalla and be emboldened because he "got away with it" ?
Nothing is easy I know and everything comes at a price.

With regard to prisons I remember watching something a while ago. IIRC It was a three stage system. On entry it was tough, hard work,discipline and little comfort, stage two was more rebuilding and rehabilitation with a few perks and stage three being more home like and focused on work skills and building blocks for the future. It was a snakes and ladder setup so cock up and you go back to the previous stage.
I thought it had a lot going for it.

@sneeze, yes, actions and consequences.

I have done some volunteer work in the prison system here in NZ. The value of work is tremendous, not least teaching the inmates, the guys in the case of our prison, to work, to get up in the morning, to be able to take instructions and tellings off without going off in a huff etc etc. Some have never worked more than a day in their lives, never had working parents to teach an example. Alternative - endless boredom and watching TV in a cell.

I remain deeply disappointed by Mr John Key. One of his election promises for his second term of Government was that he would have all prisoners working. Some no doubt saw it as a "get hard on criminals" kind of statement, others saw it as a promising move to reduce re-offending.

Thoughtful point re victims' outcomes, but not sure if the state exerting revenge helps them. The revenge is never proportional for a start.
Victim compensation of victims is perhaps another matter, and if that was the practice then the victim would never be excluded from the sentencing process.

What do you know of victims outcomes when they feel completely let down by the system?

The system cannot be responsible for the reaction of an individual to what happens in their lives. There is too many variables to that.. I know that the heathiest response is a process of coming to terms with whatever happened and some form of reconciliation with the offender. I also know that the retribution/appropriate penalty mentality has little to do with the best outcomes for the victims families. Even if the sentence in the view of the victims is appropriate as they exit the courtrooms, most of what you hear is relief because it is the perceived end of the process - only to later realise that at parole or potential release, the are still traumatised again at the idea of that offender now being free, while the victim still is still dead or living with the consequences.

The concept that the appropriate pound of flesh can be extracted is flawed. It is almost never achieveable.

You need to break it down a bit more than most people do .. accountability is the first part of the process, natural consequences and making right, penalty, protection for society, preparation for re-entry to society..... people here get stuck in the penalty groove, assuming some value for the victims when it doesn't exist, and justifying it with deterence, when that doesn't exist either in reality...

Are you so sure the odd up and coming Rugby player wont look at George Moalla and be emboldened because he "got away with it" ?

In spite of the fact that it still happens with rugby players, do you think that it would be more frequent for that group of people if they were not rugby players? So I would say no and the reason is accountability and not penalty. People modify their behaviour for the realistic appreciation of consequence, not specifc penalty. If you don't think you are going to get caught you might choose to take the risk.

Are you not going to get caught swinging punches in a drunken brawl when you are a recognisable person? These aren't the actions of of people who process things in the way that you suggest.

Neither is severe penalty a deterrent for someone shooting their mate. No one intends to shoot their mate. The penalty of shooting your mate far exceeds anything the court can do to you and it still happens doesn't it..

Now pedos are in a different category again, there is addictive compulsion involved... I would suggest severe deterrant value might have a role to play with these people..

Originally Posted by Sidney

The system cannot be responsible for the reaction of an individual to what happens in their lives. There is too many variables to that.. I know that the heathiest response is a process of coming to terms with whatever happened and some form of reconciliation with the offender. I also know that the retribution/appropriate penalty mentality has little to do with the best outcomes for the victims families. Even if the sentence in the view of the victims is appropriate as they exit the courtrooms, most of what you hear is relief because it is the perceived end of the process - only to later realise that at parole or potential release, the are still traumatised again at the idea of that offender now being free, while the victim still is still dead or living with the consequences.

The concept that the appropriate pound of flesh can be extracted is flawed. It is almost never achieveable.

You need to break it down a bit more than most people do .. accountability is the first part of the process, natural consequences and making right, penalty, protection for society, preparation for re-entry to society..... people here get stuck in the penalty groove, assuming some value for the victims when it doesn't exist, and justifying it with deterence, when that doesn't exist either in reality...



In spite of the fact that it still happens with rugby players, do you think that it would be more frequent for that group of people if they were not rugby players? So I would say no and the reason is accountability and not penalty. People modify their behaviour for the realistic appreciation of consequence, not specifc penalty. If you don't think you are going to get caught you might choose to take the risk.

Are you not going to get caught swinging punches in a drunken brawl when you are a recognisable person? These aren't the actions of of people who process things in the way that you suggest.

Neither is severe penalty a deterrent for someone shooting their mate. No one intends to shoot their mate. The penalty of shooting your mate far exceeds anything the court can do to you and it still happens doesn't it..

Now pedos are in a different category again, there is addictive compulsion involved... I would suggest severe deterrant value might have a role to play with these people..

Re pound of flesh, well put.

Re pedos... having everyone subject to being randomly selected to have their internet browsing habits made public could be a deterrent, not just to pedophilia but to all porn use. Face it, in the end most of it is abuse and exploitation, no?

Given that over 80% of all internet-browsing is porn, it doesnt take a Genius to work out the consequences for Society, long-term. People also should be aware, that there are more than 5 Agencies that can access any computer that is online in NZ, at any time. Not only can they See everything, they can also Remove anything, and ADD anything. Two of those Agencies are not NZ entities per se., this is more than A Brave New World, it's a Dangerous New World. I agree, "Re pedo's", I dont believe there's any real hope of reformation,realistically leaving very few options, but yuo'd want to get it absolutely bloody right, there's been at least a couple of suicides I personally know-of, where it was later found to be untrue

Originally Posted by rewa

Given that over 80% of all internet-browsing is porn, it doesnt take a Genius to work out the consequences for Society, long-term. People also should be aware, that there are more than 5 Agencies that can access any computer that is online in NZ, at any time. Not only can they See everything, they can also Remove anything, and ADD anything. Two of those Agencies are not NZ entities per se., this is more than A Brave New World, it's a Dangerous New World. I agree, "Re pedo's", I dont believe there's any real hope of reformation,realistically leaving very few options, but yuo'd want to get it absolutely bloody right, there's been at least a couple of suicides I personally know-of, where it was later found to be untrue

@rewa

Reflecting on the above posts, and the gross example of paedophilia, in the context of porn there is something worth mentioning called habituation and escalation, where users get "used to" certain kinds of porn, i.e. not sufficiently aroused to w*nk, and so seek out more extremes in fetischism, gay porn, teen porn, getting to the child porn. So you have otherwise straight porn addicts who seek out gay porn, maybe having initially just watched 'lesbians' at it, or spending hours watching [and identifying with] women giving men bl*wj*bs. Some will escalate their porn addiction to paedophile porn. You might argue such are not a risk to kids in the street as they are "just porn addicts" and not actual paedos - but I'd not be that certain. Sex offenders over the years have lots of porn listed in their inventory of possessions, and consistently give a strong history of porn use.

Here is a quote, linked to its informative source (safe for work!). Worth a read, maybe print a copy for your teenager going blind.

"When pornographers boast that they are pushing the envelope by introducing new, harder themes, what they don't say is that they must, because their customers are building up a tolerance to the content."

Or maybe just get them out hunting.

You spelt H..unting wrong!!

Originally Posted by Maca49

You spelt H..unting wrong!!

clicked "like" just to pretend I got that one

In my day the went hand in hand

Originally Posted by Maca49

In my day the went hand in hand

@Maca49

I really think someone should PM me and tell me what I'm missing, my sheltered life and all that..

Re pedos... having everyone subject to being randomly selected to have their internet browsing habits made public could be a deterrent, not just to pedophilia but to all porn use. Face it, in the end most of it is abuse and exploitation, no?

That is just out and out lunacy , your idea is to have Big Brother watch over everyone because some kiddy fiddler is a pervert .
The Justice / Prison system is nothing more than a joke .
The Justice system is nothing more than a fence at the top of a cliff . Whereby after a crim finally bashes its way through , then tries to bribe the system with " remorse " or money to prevent the sudden drop off the cliff . And it's not his / her fault , it's " Society's " .
Then on arrival into Prison goes onto the merry go round of box ticking " Rehabilitation " / Probation , some idiots actually manage to somehow mess things up but then just before their release ( a couple of months ) get handed the golden ticket of parole .
Then throw into the mix where the Guards have their hands tied so tightly you get the recent debacle of guards being charged for restraining a prisoner who has just stabbed them in the head " complaining " about his treatment . With the guards being charged with assault .

Originally Posted by Tankd

That is just out and out lunacy , your idea is to have Big Brother watch over everyone because some kiddy fiddler is a pervert .
The Justice / Prison system is nothing more than a joke .
The Justice system is nothing more than a fence at the top of a cliff . Whereby after a crim finally bashes its way through , then tries to bribe the system with " remorse " or money to prevent the sudden drop off the cliff . And it's not his / her fault , it's " Society's " .
Then on arrival into Prison goes onto the merry go round of box ticking " Rehabilitation " / Probation , some idiots actually manage to somehow mess things up but then just before their release ( a couple of months ) get handed the golden ticket of parole .
Then throw into the mix where the Guards have their hands tied so tightly you get the recent debacle of guards being charged for restraining a prisoner who has just stabbed them in the head " complaining " about his treatment . With the guards being charged with assault .

@Tankd

While not disagreeing with anything...still funny you should say so... we already HAVE agencies reading our email and monitoring our browsing habits. The train left the platform long ago.

The hunt for those everywhere present pedos in grey raincoats is often touted when such big brotherly surveillance capabilities are noted... a bit like the war on terror is quoted to justify bombing... bombing a lot of people.

Remember the film, "The Lives of Others" with the STASI agent spending his career steaming open letter envelopes? Such a saddo thing is being done on a grander scale in our Western democracies, to protect us of course. Hard to argue against it, hard to argue for it, I personally try not to think too much about it.

Cordite, your 'Habituation and Escalation' synopsis, is right-on-the-money, this 21st-Century Porn-journey, makes old-fashioned 'PlayBoy' look just silly. This discussion should be more mainstream, so that its out in the open, then young People can see what it really is, and where it can easily go.

@rewa

Here is a thought provoking Ted-X talk from Glasgow. Good campfire conversation material. Well, it's about sex, innit.

Originally Posted by Sidney

And not any more than anyone else.... precisely the point

OR (shock; horror) perhaps not any less, either.