Thread: Kawerau siege - Stuff court report

Originally Posted by BRADS

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Some of us have more experience than others.

Originally Posted by Feral

Some of us have more experience than others.

At least someone here knows what's happening.

Originally Posted by Feral

Some of us have more experience than others.

So what experience do you have dealing with unknown people, not knowing whether they're armed or not, in their own houses whilst having to operate under NZ law and Police policy? I'm dying to hear this.

Originally Posted by Savage1

So what experience do you have dealing with unknown people, not knowing whether they're armed or not, in their own houses whilst having to operate under NZ law and Police policy? I'm dying to hear this.

Sorry Savage, I don't enter into online pissing contests but more than happy to buy you a beer and take you through my videos, photo albums and written accounts in person if you're in / around Palmy at any stage.

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Originally Posted by Savage1

So what experience do you have dealing with unknown people, not knowing whether they're armed or not, in their own houses whilst having to operate under NZ law and Police policy? I'm dying to hear this.

Hopefully it doesn’t include firing indiscriminately through walls into rooms suspected of containing hostages/innocent woman or children.

Originally Posted by Koshogi

Hopefully it doesn’t include firing indiscriminately through walls into rooms suspected of containing hostages/innocent woman or children.

Absolutely not. And this is why it is a training issue (and a legal one). The poor officers going into a nasty, and frankly, specialised, role of urban house clearance in an ambiguous environment and then reacting as best their natural instinct tells them to in the heat of the circumstances - like seeing your mate dropped like a log. Only those involved will ever know what went through their minds in the stress of the moment, but this is where training makes the difference in training the agreed actions (ie policy / tactics / procedures) into the mind (stress reaction / resilience) and the body (muscle memory). No one can sell the narrative to me that it is "SOP" to clear an urban room by fire, without knowing the risk of innocents being present. Not that NZ Police disclose or discuss tactics or operational procedures...

So, in a nutshell, a reaction in the heat of the moment that a better resourced and therefore better trained police force could have handled better. Particularly important when you are looked to as an example organisation. Instead, a guy trying to do his job the best he can is exposed to massive risk of manslaughter / negligence and a bunch of other strong words like those from being under prepared in a situation he wasn't trained adequately for.

Originally Posted by Feral

Instead, a guy trying to do his job the best he can is exposed to massive risk of manslaughter / negligence and a bunch of other strong words like those from being under prepared in a situation he wasn't trained adequately for.

Are the NZ Police (as an organisation) bound by the health & safety at work act? NZDF are exempt, right?

Originally Posted by stretch

Are the NZ Police (as an organisation) bound by the health & safety at work act? NZDF are exempt, right?

NZDF isn't exempt! Refer Anzac day Iroquois crash. Nzdf prosecuted under health and safety legislation

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

NZDF isn't exempt! Refer Anzac day Iroquois crash. Nzdf prosecuted under health and safety legislation

Surely there must be some exemptions.

"Take that hill"

"That's not very safe, Sir. There's bad guys with guns up there."

Originally Posted by stretch

Are the NZ Police (as an organisation) bound by the health & safety at work act? NZDF are exempt, right?

1.2 Key concepts in HSWA
Coverage is broad
HSWA applies to nearly all work in New Zealand.

There are exceptions. For example, HSWA does not apply to:

members of the Armed Forces carrying out operational activity
civilians working in support of Armed Forces overseas in an area of operational activity
any military aircraft or naval ship carrying out operational activity.

Originally Posted by Tahr

1.2 Key concepts in HSWA
Coverage is broad
HSWA applies to nearly all work in New Zealand.

There are exceptions. For example, HSWA does not apply to:

members of the Armed Forces carrying out operational activity
civilians working in support of Armed Forces overseas in an area of operational activity
any military aircraft or naval ship carrying out operational activity.

Thanks Tahr. That's exactly the clarification I was after.