Thread: Licensing and mental illness

With the last couple of incidents in the US, the whole issue of mental illness has come up again.

Interested to hear your guys thoughts on this.

I reckon most of the population suffer from some form of mental illness at some point in their life. Does that mean they should automatically be excluded from the licensing process ?

What about folks that suffer from mild depression and/or anxiety and are controlling it with medication ?

If someone had a mental health issue and has been treated and is all good now, how long should the stand-down period be ?

You can't really expect a doctor to say "well, John is ok now, all good", and then have the guy turn around and shoot someone down the line. So does that mean people simply do not declare any past or present mental health issues when applying ?

Other than looking at someones medical records (never going to happen with NZ privacy laws), how can the police effectively get a picture of the applicants mental health record ?

What if someone is "sane". Gets a license and then has a meltdown ? Should any mental health issues by "notifyable" in the case of a person who has a firearms license ?

Lots of tricky questions and no easy answers...

I know of someone who had a bout of depression after a marriage break up. A mate let the cops know and they took his guns off him for the duration of his illness. Once he got through it he got them back.

What if someone is "sane". Gets a license and then has a meltdown ? Should any mental health issues by "notifyable" in the case of a person who has a firearms license ?

From personal experience 20 years ago. My uncle suffered manic depression with all that goes with it. Made all sorts of threats. His sister (my mum) went to police to suggest his licence be revoked and firearms removed. They didn't want to be involved / not their problem until and offense committed.
Mental Health people didn't want to know as didn't want to 'set him off"

I still had a reasonable relationship so I ended up going to visit him to "borrow" all his firearms as I wanted to go hunting and sold all mine to raise funds for the house we just brought,
They sat in my gunsafe till he passed away (brain tumor), but as far as I know he could have purchased more as his licence was never revoked.

Bottom line is it should not have been up to me to do this. I often wonder how many times this happens?

1. Define mental illness.

2. See item 1

A high profile "mental illness" sufferer with a FAL is Cameron Slater aka WhaleOil.

I believe the biggest issue is actually looking at the American system and thinking there's a form of logic

Can only rely on the quality and honesty of the referee's. Looking at the mass shooters they all were ticking time bombs with common behavioral history traits. Regular people don't just randomly flip out. And statistics seem to suggest that regular people who fall on tough times are more likely to turn a gun on themselves than a bunch of school children.

I think that really bad mental illnesses would get picked up with the initial vetting process, just from talking to referees and talking to the applicant and seeing their home would defiantly give some clues. ( I was planning on asking the vetter how many applications get declined just out of curiosity but sadly forgot)
once the license was issued it becomes a real grey area, if it was me i would hope that a mate would notice and either take me out for a hunt or borrow my guns for awhile.

good topic for a thread, really got the gears turning

P.s dont ask me to define a bad mental illness

My mother hates firearms with a passion. I had her as a referee for my license as I was still living with her at the time and had to have a family member. I wasn't sure if she was gonna try and stop me from getting it. But she said she doesnt like them personally but has no problem with them. And did mention in my last year of high school I had mild depression (2 or 3 years before I applied). I found out I couldn't be a Comercial pilot. Wasn't bad and didn't go on meds. I didn't know mum told the guy who interviewed me. I mentioned it when he asked. Didn't seem to be a problem. I will happily be a reference for anyone wanting a firearms license. ESPECIALLY if I do not think they are not fit and propper.It is up to us to maintain the integrity of the system.

Depression isn't an immediate give away of a pending active shooter. Everybody gets depressed. But if you look at the bulk of cases, depression is one part of the puzzle these people display. Off the top of my head - personality disorders, a sense of intitlement, a lack of meaningful friendships and relationships, childish anger issues, withdrawn from society. These were traits displayed by some of the most infamous killers. Now under our system it's pretty hard to get a license if you have no mates to be a referee. In the Oregon case it was noted that he was turned away from a firearms training group because they thought he was a weirdo.

The problem with stigmatising depression is a double edged sword , people with firearms licenses are less likely to seek help if they could lose there license, so a very mild case which could be talked through without any problems can result in a more severe case.

Originally Posted by Beavis

Depression isn't an immediate give away of a pending active shooter. Everybody gets depressed. But if you look at the bulk of cases, depression is one part of the puzzle these people display. Off the top of my head - personality disorders, a sense of intitlement, a lack of meaningful friendships and relationships, childish anger issues, withdrawn from society. These were traits displayed by some of the most infamous killers. Now under our system it's pretty hard to get a license if you have no mates to be a referee. In the Oregon case it was noted that he was turned away from a firearms training group because they thought he was a weirdo.

Yes, personality disorders within the criteria shown in the DSM- 5 list should automatically disqualify
an applicant

But, far too complicated to identify and enforce.

I know a few people in this category and they should not have a firearms license as generally their thought patterns and emotions are too unstable.

I wouldn't be happy with them using a sharp knife around me either...............




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

a couple of things are some people have depression and don't even relise they do so how do you actually test for it the other thing is just by taking away firearms it wont nessecarily stop people from hurting people who have their mind set on doing so a gun,car,knife,baseball bat,axe or whatever is a harmless object until you add a human to it I think guns seem so bad to some people because they are a tool of war

right heres my story .Iam a psychiatric nurse (43yrs),i suffer from depression(25yrs+)and am on medication. When it came to my FAL renewal I was straight up with the boys in blue ,and gave em the OK to talk to my GP about it .sweet as ,all sorted.
Access to firearms In terms of mental health Is always foremost in my present forensic setting.should anyone i nurse show more than a passing interest Its noted.anyone with active firearms experience or military experience -also noted. Why -because eventually that person could potentially have access to firearms to either self harm(suicide)or the other. Its also a question which is often asked of whanua.betyter safe than sorry!
N z's mental health system has built in protocols re driving license-automatic revocation and the forms placed on file&computer, if you are detained in a under compulsory status and this requires permisson of the govt transport HQ in wellington to be reinstated following a very arduous assessment process.have dealt with more than one who ran foul of the boys in blue based on that one.
now I hear you say "he can check up on anyone _NO!Under present privacy laws and employer legislation its a sackable offence for me to even attempt to Access MY OWN RECORDS. communications to police ,dsw ,sis etc is allowed under specifically set out criteria within privacy laws ,but this would be undertaken normally by someone miles higher up the command structure than me.
yessiree you read it right -I own that info ,but because I am not actively nursing me its regarded as a gross invasion of privacy.at times i may be away from my parent unit and have to access certain info but even then protocols are in place and make no mistake these are rigorously checked.
BTWnothdude -bloody nice summary that Its got it in a nutshell. Add socks to the list of dangerous weapons too -the last successful suicide i was involved in hung themseves from the bedroom door with nknotted socks.,successfully too ,despite my cuttin off the socks and us doing CPRfor 15mins flat tack!

The main concern for Police is if its the type of mental illness where Police have become involved due to an incident, or the individual has been committed for a period of time, or being on strong meds such as antipsychotics may play a factor in being declined a FAL. And of course if your partner says "don't give him a FAL he is crazy" that wouldn't help much either.

Originally Posted by 7mmsaum

Yes, personality disorders within the criteria shown in the DSM- 5 list should automatically disqualify
an applicant

But, far too complicated to identify and enforce.

I know a few people in this category and they should not have a firearms license as generally their thought patterns and emotions are too unstable.

I wouldn't be happy with them using a sharp knife around me either...............

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just quit an interest group as frankly I think too many of the posters in there shouldnt be near a knife either let alone own Cat-E firearms.

The big problem is that if mental illnesss bars you from firearms ownership then people will avoid treatement so you have mentally unstable people without treatment who have access to firearms. Think of the sutiation of someone coming back from the middle east with PTSD. They have a choice of seaking treatment but loosing their firearms or avoiding treatment, keeping their firearms and living with the mental illness.

I honestly don't know what the answer is.