Thread: Mail order firearm loophole??????????

Means that they can change the form without it having to go back through parliament and the law being amended.

That's what I thought. Therefore that means they can require you to fill that for out if they request you to, does it not?

Originally Posted by Jexla

That's what I thought. Therefore that means they can require you to fill that for out if they request you to, does it not?

They would have to create a regulation (ie a legal document in itself) stating that their particular form is required - but that would probably contradict the Arms Act which says (as mentioned above) that it just has to be a written order etc. Acts are more powerful than regulations, as the regulation would be created under the authority of the act.

However if they were refusing to sign a written order which didn't use their form, I think you would have to really want to make an issue of it to be worth the cost and hassle of a legal challenge.

Originally Posted by Jexla

That's what I thought. Therefore that means they can require you to fill that for out if they request you to, does it not?

No.

If they want a specific form to be used, which isn't already specified in the act, then they need either:
-an Order In Council by the Governor General, or
- an Amendment to the Act.

Once a form is prescribed, then they could insist that you complete all fields. However, if the information requested isn't specified in the order/amendment than you could certainly challenge than he requirement to fill it out.

A "written order" is not a prescribed form.

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Originally Posted by Kscott

Do what others have done, and pick up a telephone.

Yes I have done that I sold a rifle to a chap in Christchurch he emailed a scan of his license I rang Wellington and checked with the FO there his License was valid I still got him to send the correct paper work
sped things up knowing he was all kosher,
The thing with Gun City was there was no official Police stamp on the form, all the mail order forms I have seen have a stamp with the officers number and signature, one I picked up at Auckland central was a photocopy of my License the Police stamp badge number and signature because they had runout of the forms,
I have never downloaded a form, that I think is the stupidest idea ever no wonder Heather DP-A got away with it I have always picked my forms up from the station some times the officer on duty gives you a blank look when you ask for one.

Originally Posted by shooternz

...they had runout of the forms...

Did they not posess that marvel of modern technology known as a printer?

Originally Posted by shooternz

I have never downloaded a form, that I think is the stupidest idea ever no wonder Heather DP-A got away with it I have always picked my forms up from the station some times the officer on duty gives you a blank look when you ask for one.

Plus the GC downloaded form has a valid FAL number pre-printed on it. Quite a few shops do that.

Originally Posted by Koshogi

No.

If they want a specific form to be used, which isn't already specified in the act, then they need either:
-an Order In Council by the Governor General, or
- an Amendment to the Act.

Once a form is prescribed, then they could insist that you complete all fields. However, if the information requested isn't specified in the order/amendment than you could certainly challenge than he requirement to fill it out.

A "written order" is not a prescribed form.

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Good luck arguing that in court when the cop tells you to complete the form he gave you 100%.

Pretty sure you actually have to physically "sight" the other persons licence as part of the transaction if you have not got the "Form"

Also pretty sure that the "Arms Act" is one of the few where you have to be able to prove you didn't do something bad/wrong as opposed to all the others where the Authorities must "Prove" you did do that something beyond reasonable doubt

i think when it comes to gunstuff ''reasonably sure'' is no longer good enough
.doesnt the mail order form apply to sending ammo guns to even your granny?? if your not personaly delivering it yourself and therefore are in a position to inspect a licence .

Only if you're selling it to your granny.

S43a only applies to sales.

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Of course if its someone you know personally and you have seen their firearms licence then you can argue that its not a 'mail order' sale either, so the form is not required.

43 Selling or supplying firearm or airgun to unlicensed person
(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment
for a term not exceeding 3 months or to a fine not exceeding $1,000 or to both
who—
(a) sells or supplies a firearm (other than a pistol, military style semi-automatic
firearm, or restricted weapon) to any person who is not the holder
of a firearms licence or a dealer’s licence or a permit issued for the purposes
of section 16(1); or
(b) sells or supplies an airgun to any natural person who is under the age of
18 years and is not the holder of a firearms licence.
(2) In any prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) in which it is
proved,—
(a) in the case of a prosecution for an offence against paragraph (a) of that
subsection, that the defendant sold or supplied a firearm to any person,
the burden of proving that that person was the holder of a firearms
licence shall lie on the defendant;

...

(4) A defendant may, in the case of a prosecution relating to the sale or supply of a
firearm or airgun to any person, discharge the burden of proof placed on him
by subsection (2) by proving that he took reasonable steps to ascertain whether
that person was the holder of a firearms licence or was of or over the age of 18
years, as the case may require.

I am surprised that no one has posted on the item reported on TV last night where a courier left a signature required package containing a firearm, with bolt, on a woman's doorstep (parcel was for her) in Welle. Or have I missed it and it is posted already?
Slightly OT for this thread but it still going to cause us grief with cops/trademe looking at the issue of firearms being couriered and no one to receive them. Rather than the issue being the slack arse couriers who we pay extra for to send signature required and they don't complete the agreed service.

Originally Posted by hamsav

Might be wrong but I don't think you necessarily even need the form . I thought that you only had to be reasonably sure , Or have taken reasonable steps to ensure that the receiver of the gun or ammo has a valid FAL ..... My brother lives at the other end of the island ......I know he has a FAL and I know he hasn't been recently relieved of it ( mum cant keep a secret ) .... so should he ask to borrow or buy a gun from me .... Id just send it to him with out further checking ... If my father ( a man well respected in the legal profession ) was to vouch for a third party having a FAL I would send that third party the gun ( specially if I also knew the third party..... say for instance if the third party had been a family friend for as long as I can remember ) . In both instances I can be reasonably sure that the potential receivers of any gun did in fact have a FAL . Same deal if a trusted hunting mate wants to borrow a gun and you know he has a FAL .... would you ask to see it ? If you had to take a gun into a gun shop for repair would you ask to see the gunsmiths FAL?
I recently sold some ammo to a guy in Jaffa land ..got the FAL confirmation via e-mail from the police ( was it really from the police ? ) I posted the ammo... he subsequently claimed the ammo was faulty ( it wasn't ) I gave him back his loot and he sent the ammo back , didn't ask to see my FAL........I guess he felt safe because the police didn't have a fit when he applied for the mail order form knowing that the police had forwarded it to me via email.
My father recently asked me to get him some ammo ( 17hmr and 12g ) because he had misplaced his FAL ( hes nearly 80 )...... never gave it a thought ... just got the bombs for him ,

When all is said and done, the onus is on the seller to ensure the buyer still has a valid firearms license. If for whatever reason, that buyer was to be found to not have had a license at that point the the consequences fall to the seller. It is your responsibility to make sure the person you give the firearm to has a license and it will be you who will face the consequences if this is not done. If you "know" they have a license then that is your call, and we have all done it on occasion where there is often family or hunting buddies involved. (Eg one of a group stays with the guns and car while others stock up at the supermarket etc; who checks their license? I'll admit I've never bothered. If I didnt trust them I would not be hunting with them..)

Originally Posted by Mauser308

Interesting to note - the S43a only applies to sales.

Send a firearm on consignment, no form required. Same if sending to a gunsmith, or back to a supplier - no form required...

If sending a firearm with no intent to sell, no form required.

The system is a bit of a crock there. I'm fairly sure that dealers aren't required to send an S43a every time they get more stock in. So - the question has to be asked why bother with the rigmarole at all seeing as it is obviously ineffective/defective/increasingly irrelevant?

PTP's for endorsed items from suppliers....?

Import permits negate the need for a PTP.